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Who Will Control the Software That Powers the Internet?

a16z.com

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Re: Who Will Control the Software That Powers the Internet?

#71
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would be very scared if the electrical utility company started looking at what i'm using the electrons for, and start disallowing certain types of uses for their electrons. The energy companies already do disallow certain types of use for "their electrons" (check your contract, seriously - domestic users are forbidden from certain uses) and with the advent of accurate monitoring thanks to 'smart meters' are able…

What uses are you talking about? As far as I understand it suppliers are generally more than happy for you to use more of their electrons and don't particularly care what you use them for. One thing that I do think will change over the next few years, helped by smart meters is that we'll see more time of use based pricing, and that with renewables on the rise (and their associated intermittency) at some point we'll s…

> What uses are you talking about?

> As far as I understand it suppliers are generally more than happy for you to use more of their electrons and don't particularly care what you use them for.

In the UK the law differentiates "domestic customers" using services for domestic purpose (this part is important, commercial use is is excluded!) and, "non-domestic" which includes all others. Domestic customers get to have a fuel price cap and lower climate charge levy thanks to that (though caveats apply, as it does not include "green deals" and fixed terms) but "non-domestic" users do not.

Of course you are right: the suppliers would indeed be more than happy to suply you as much of their electrons as you could obtain - at the business rates, not domestic, ideally at one where caps don't apply.

Take this little innocous line from the British Gas (Centrica) standard rate T&Cs:

    Supply and supplying: The gas or electricity (or both) we provide, or what we do to provide them. The supply is for you to use entirely or mainly for domestic purposes
There is a reason for it - a significant enough jump in energy use (say, if you want to charge an EV or put up a multi-GPU bitcoin miner) does trigger an investigation. EV users get a to select a preferential rate [1], suspected commercial users are asked to move to business rates (or show why that shouldn't be the case), any detected pot growers get referred to the appropriate police force. The energy company does care - at least so you can pay it more.

> 'Smart meters'

I agree that the move to more accurate/higher resolution measurement would make it possible to offer pricing that is more reflective of "true cost" - Economy 7 is well known to skew incentives, especially as more and more energy is used outside of traditional "day" hours (and with more and more solar powr in the mix, the overgeneration during the day hours) - but I would not be so optimistic that the consumers are going to be the primary beneficiaries of the change when the dust settles, they never are.

As for privacy, well, there is one substantial additional difference: your bandwidth and internet usage patterns generally have to be monitored by your ISP or internet services you visit, whereas a SMETS2 meter will create a nice new 2.4 Ghz network (and 868 Mhz, if/when it is available), so sooner or later it will be readable by a local attacker, if it isn't already. This is a device that is supposed to last as long as 20 years (though SMETS1 proved this might be a bit optimistic...).

[0] https://www.britishgas.co.uk/GetAQuote/tariff-information/ta... [1] https://www.britishgas.co.uk/GetAQuote/tariff-information/ta...

Re: Who Will Control the Software That Powers the Internet?

#72
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a recent post from an A16Z insider that basically made it clear that they are nothing more than a media house with VC capabilities. This is probably why the person writing it doesn't make much sense to you.

I just had a good chuckle looking at the top google result for a16z, the tagline of their own website is: "Andreessen Horowitz | Software Is Eating the World" I don't disagree with that as a statement, but it's such a funny premise to put as the MAIN THING for your big serious VC website.

Behind a paywall but here’s the original: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111903480904576512...

Here’s a non-paywalled version: https://genius.com/Marc-andreessen-why-software-is-eating-th...

If you’re questioning the venue of that second link, as I recall, a16z was one of the earlier backers of Genius.

Re: Who Will Control the Software That Powers the Internet?

#73

It's unclear to me if the person who wrote "who controls the Internet" has ever interacted with core internet infrastructure at the router, BGP, major transit and transport service provider ISP level. I find it very hard to take seriously prognostication from persons who've never been responsible for even a small sized ASN. Persons I do take seriously when they prognosticate on the future of the Internet: The individ…

A lot of times when people say “the internet”, they mean “the web”

Re: Who Will Control the Software That Powers the Internet?

#74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What uses are you talking about? As far as I understand it suppliers are generally more than happy for you to use more of their electrons and don't particularly care what you use them for. One thing that I do think will change over the next few years, helped by smart meters is that we'll see more time of use based pricing, and that with renewables on the rise (and their associated intermittency) at some point we'll s…

> What uses are you talking about? > As far as I understand it suppliers are generally more than happy for you to use more of their electrons and don't particularly care what you use them for. In the UK the law differentiates "domestic customers" using services for domestic purpose (this part is important, commercial use is is excluded!) and, "non-domestic" which includes all others. Domestic customers get to have a…

Thanks for the detailed response, there's a lot to unpack there and a few things I wasn't aware of.

> Domestic customers get to have a fuel price cap

Interesting, I didn't realize that commercial usage wasn't subject to the price cap, and generally know very little about commercial supply

> EV users get a to select a preferential rate

Yes most suppliers are now offering time of use tariffs that are better suited for electric vehicle owners, these typically come with a super low off peak rate, and then a higher rate the rest of the day.

For someone that can charge a vehicle during that off peak time they should come out ahead, but I'd be very surprised if British gas got upset if you charged your vehicle on their standard tariffs.

> any detected pot growers get referred to the appropriate police force.

I thought that kind of investigation was generally instigated by the police rather than the other way around, but not 100% sure.

> SMETS2 meter will create a nice new 2.4 Ghz network (and 868 Mhz

I presume you're meaning the HAN that the meter uses to update the in home display. As far as I'm aware this is securely encrypted. Whether it'll stand the test of time who knows (let's face it WEP and friends certainly didn't), but the same logic could be applied to the WiFi network your router is creating.

Difference being that the data going over the HAN is likely to be a constant stream of values meaning it doesn't leak much information unless you can decrypt it. Someone able to passively observe that local network can almost certainly observe your WiFi transmissions, which will be much more variable - little to no activity when you aren't home, and lots of activity when you're streaming a movie.

Also yes smets1 was a bit of a cock up, but they aren't obsolete just dormant and in the process of joining the DCC - https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/smart-future/enrolment-and-adopti...

Re: Who Will Control the Software That Powers the Internet?

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it possible to keep tracing things back to a more base layer beyond what you've described though? It's kind of arbitrary to draw the line any particular place. Like I could write "it's unclear to me if the person who wrote 'interacted with core internet infrastructure at the router, BGP, major transit and transport service provider ISP level' has ever interacted with electrical grid management, power plant oper…

No, TCP/IP and the ability to exchange routes between different networks is what makes the Internet. All of the value is in these interconnected networks and being able to send traffic to arbitrary endpoints regardless of your provider. There is no “base layer” beneath TCP/IP. That’s the beauty of the Internet. The underlying ISPs connecting together will have different lower level protocols, different internal routi…

> There is no “base layer” beneath TCP/IP.

The people who run the DWDM systems in my region might disagree with that statement :)

Not a network protocol layer but there's plenty of transport gear that exists at layers 1/2 in the OSI model and is opaque to people who are looking at things from the perspective of router-to-router (or metro ethernet L2 transport) adjacencies.

Re: Who Will Control the Software That Powers the Internet?

#76
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What uses are you talking about? > As far as I understand it suppliers are generally more than happy for you to use more of their electrons and don't particularly care what you use them for. In the UK the law differentiates "domestic customers" using services for domestic purpose (this part is important, commercial use is is excluded!) and, "non-domestic" which includes all others. Domestic customers get to have a…

Thanks for the detailed response, there's a lot to unpack there and a few things I wasn't aware of. > Domestic customers get to have a fuel price cap Interesting, I didn't realize that commercial usage wasn't subject to the price cap, and generally know very little about commercial supply > EV users get a to select a preferential rate Yes most suppliers are now offering time of use tariffs that are better suited for…

> I presume you're meaning the HAN that the meter uses to update the in home display. As far as I'm aware this is securely encrypted. Whether it'll stand the test of time who knows (let's face it WEP and friends certainly didn't), but the same logic could be applied to the WiFi network your router is creating.

Yup, I do mean the HAN - and the way CAD including IHD connect to it. It may be based on ZigBee, but it modifies the protocol to add its own authorisation and encryption prototypes. They may have sound basis as of today but given the precedent (GSM/UMTS encryption, WEP, WPA, but also Infineon cryptographic corprocessor failures), the custom modifications to ZigBee and a couple of other deviations from usual practices I would consider it almost a certainty that within the lifetime of the device the protocol will be broken or bypassed. The question is how and when, not if.

Let me put it this way: I would be pleasantly surprised if it is otherwise, as that would be the exception, not the rule.

> Difference being that the data going over the HAN is likely to be a constant stream of values meaning it doesn't leak much information unless you can decrypt it. Someone able to passively observe that local network can almost certainly observe your WiFi transmissions, which will be much more variable - little to no activity when you aren't home, and lots of activity when you're streaming a movie.

Most of the equipment I have is wired (optical or copper), including supposedly mobile devices ([0]) and the ones that aren't are not a good indicator of presence (roughly constant data stream). It's a different story if one was to bring an IMSI catcher, of course - but there is only so much you can do and still participate in the modern world.

As a side note: I admit I may be biased as the meter location would preclude any IHD from being in range of HAN (5 reinforced concrete slabs away for electric, worse for gas), has problems with GSM connectivity for the same reasons and has dubious physical security against anyone who posseses a high tech tool known as "screwdriver" or "knife". The fallback procedure that UK suppliers have for this situation is "read the meter like a dumb meter" [sic!] until the supposed "alternative HAN solution" is in place. I know it puts me in the 3.5% minority of households, but still it rankles.

[0] This is normally where I go on a rant about flagship Pixel USB-C powered phones being unable to charge and use network adapter at the same time due to incomplete implementation on the phone side - one or the other. Older micro-usb models could do both as long USB-OTG was supported. iOS devices have no such issue, but they have other ones.

Re: Who Will Control the Software That Powers the Internet?

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, TCP/IP and the ability to exchange routes between different networks is what makes the Internet. All of the value is in these interconnected networks and being able to send traffic to arbitrary endpoints regardless of your provider. There is no “base layer” beneath TCP/IP. That’s the beauty of the Internet. The underlying ISPs connecting together will have different lower level protocols, different internal routi…

> There is no “base layer” beneath TCP/IP. Actually, there usually are. Physical transport layers run their own protocols and the physical media themselves (in case we are not talking OTA) also count as layers in the stack. And while these have been mostly commoditized whoever controls them does have a lot of power.

> Actually, there usually are. Physical transport layers run their own protocols and the physical media themselves

Whoosh, you missed the point. The “base layer” of the Internet is the one that allows cross-connectivity of the networks. All of the layers beneath tcp/ip are interchangeable and people will still be able to get on the Internet.

> And while these have been mostly commoditized whoever controls them does have a lot of power.

They were immediately commoditized by design when we standardized on IP. IP over MPLS vs IP over ATM vs IP over frame relay looks no different to the end user. In one minute I can roam from a network based on dwdm to one based on microwave back-haul and I still can connect to hackernews and pull down comments over TCP/IP.

When people want “Internet access”, the vast majority don’t give two shits about the medium, the link layer protocols, or anything like that. They want IP connectivity that has decent speeds. That’s the “base layer” that everything on the Internet is built on. Anything below that is transparently (and frequently) replaced because it’s an irrelevant implementation detail stripped off at the boundary of each network.

Re: Who Will Control the Software That Powers the Internet?

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, TCP/IP and the ability to exchange routes between different networks is what makes the Internet. All of the value is in these interconnected networks and being able to send traffic to arbitrary endpoints regardless of your provider. There is no “base layer” beneath TCP/IP. That’s the beauty of the Internet. The underlying ISPs connecting together will have different lower level protocols, different internal routi…

> There is no “base layer” beneath TCP/IP. The people who run the DWDM systems in my region might disagree with that statement :) Not a network protocol layer but there's plenty of transport gear that exists at layers 1/2 in the OSI model and is opaque to people who are looking at things from the perspective of router-to-router (or metro ethernet L2 transport) adjacencies.

If someone can get by without your technology and access the Internet, it’s not the base layer of the Internet.

DWDM and whatever other technologies are important but simultaneously irrelevant when discussing the base layer of the Internet. Everything online is built on TCP/IP so Twitter doesn’t need to do anything if Comcast switches from DWDM to pigeon carrier as backhaul.

Re: Who Will Control the Software That Powers the Internet?

#79
post #67
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a hit piece. Another salvo in the mainstream media's ongoing war on Silicon Valley.

Is there any group at all that doesn't think that the "mainstream media" boogeyman is at war with them?

Do you know another group that stole ad-revenue from the media like high tech companies did?

Re: Who Will Control the Software That Powers the Internet?

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. We need a clear separation between system programs and application programs, so that a user can install the latest version of Python without it ever colliding with the outdated version of Python that the OS uses internally. The user shouldn't even need to be aware of the existence of the other Python. 2. The default way to install third-party application software shouldn't depend on repositories or servers. It sho…

> We need a clear separation between system programs and application programs ... The default way to install third-party application software shouldn't depend on repositories or servers. It should be based on installing files, just like on Windows. So the end goal is for a system where users download random binaries off the net, which never get any security patches and leave dozens of copies of vulnerable dependencie…

> So the end goal is for a system where users download random binaries off the net

They download the binaries they trust off the net.

You're insinuating that some users are too stupid to know who to trust and go around downloading random binaries. If there are such users, then I guess my OS is not geared towards them, but rather to software developers, creative professionals, etc. who know what they're doing and need to get their application software directly from the developer.

People who don't know who to trust or want their OS developers to keep repositories for them can keep using Apple devices with their walled gardens or repository-centric Linux distros.

> which never get any security patches and leave dozens of copies of vulnerable dependencies lying around?

Do Windows applications never get any security patches?

And yes, sandboxing is not an infallible security mechanism, but it could help, and it also has other practical advantages not related to security.

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