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No one knows how much the government can borrow

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Re: No one knows how much the government can borrow

#251

Directly related is "Modern Monetary Theory" or MMT. Here's a 24 minute explainer from NPR, Planet Money. https://www.npr.org/2021/01/20/958854717/modern-monetary-the... And a brief explainer from The Conversation https://theconversation.com/modern-monetary-theory-the-rise-... Also known by its detractors as "Magic Money Tree." One of those detractors is of course the Adam Smith Institute. https://www.adamsmith.org/r…

I've been deep diving on MMT lately (per Rohan Gray, Stephanie Kelton, and L. Randall Wray); while I'm not entirely convinced, one thing that's surprised me is that it's less prescriptive than is oft assumed from its elevator pitch, and is much more focused on accurately describing what states do already. The claim is not that we can starting printing money willy-nilly without consequences; it's that we do that alrea…

> rather than taxes being a "necessary evil" policy to pay for some other good, they can actually be reconstrued as positive goods in and of themselves: to price externalities (pollution tax) or discourage behavior (sin tax), etc.

You can think of the very high marginal income taxes prior to Reagan, even higher prior to JFK as 'sin taxes'. People opposed to high marginal tax rates like to point out that those high taxes didn't produce more revenue. But MMT thoery would tell you revenue was never the point. The point was to discourage people with the power to divert money into their own pockets from doing so.

Re: No one knows how much the government can borrow

#252
post #22
post #17

If you owe the bank $100, that's your problem. If you owe the bank $1000 billion, that's the bank's problem.

That metaphor works better for huge businesses. There's really no bank here(yes I'm well aware of central banks, but that's not really how bank is being used here from a balance sheet solvency perspective). It's more like if you issue currency and owe trillions, that's the currency and the currency issuers problem.

It still applies.

The US as a country is so large economically , it is quite bad for the world to let the US default on loans or the economy collapse, compared to say Venezuela or Argentina.

Re: No one knows how much the government can borrow

#253
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A McDonalds double cheeseburger meal costs $8. I remember when that was 3.99 not too long ago. Somehow I doubt that price difference is captured by the official 1 - 2% inflation rate.

> A McDonalds double cheeseburger meal costs $8. > I remember when that was 3.99 not too long ago. Somehow I doubt that price difference is captured by the official 1 - 2% inflation rate. Probably not exactly (and maybe not even approximately), because while restaurant meals are included in the CPI, the CPI is a somewhat broader index than the “McDonald’s double cheeseburger meal index” (also, McDonald's prices have…

There certainly is a big Mac index.

The price of big Mac is used as purchasing power proxy.

McDonald's is pretty efficient in their supply chains to use as rough proxy to real world idea of how things are. The variations you talk about don't add up to 100% change in price OP mentions.

Re: No one knows how much the government can borrow

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes my underwear is going to offset the rising prices of homes, education, healthcare, etc. Also even your example is incorrect, the iphone price keeps rising at a healthy clip. They can now be $1300.

> the iphone price keeps rising at a healthy clip. They can now be $1300. The iPhone (1) was introduced in 2007 and cost US$ 600 for the 8 GB model. What were its capabilities in 2007 ? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_(1st_generation) What, for $600, can you get now? And what are the capabilities of a $600 smartphone in 2021 ? An iPhone 12 mini is $700 [1], an iPhone 11 [2] 64 GB is $600, and a 128 GB for $650…

You have to comare with a $600 smartphone from 2007 and $600 one from 2021 and see how far apple is actually ahead

Re: No one knows how much the government can borrow

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counterpoint is Japan, which has 280% debt-to-GDP ratios (about double the US), and is still selling government bonds at 0% interest rates. I'm not saying demand is infinite, but it very well could be significantly higher than the current supply. In particular older demographics tend to heavily favor low interest rates and high money supplies. Old people tend to have high savings, and are risk-averse enough that…

The bank of Japan literally to hold half of that. It's just printing cash with extra steps.

Exactly. Once you factor in "who owns that debt" the picture changes. See 'external debt by country'

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_externa...

Re: No one knows how much the government can borrow

#256
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What happens to your currency in that process is debasement/hyperinflation. Japan may disagree with that assessment: * Interest rate: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/INTDSRJPM193N * Inflation: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FPCPITOTLZGJPN * YEN-USD: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/EXJPUS

Turkeys think they have a great life right up until Thanksgiving. While I’ll readily concede that Japan has surprised everyone, at some point in time the sheer magnitude will overcome the lenders’ belief. Their ability to repay, and then it all goes downhill very fast. That’s the thing - hyperinflation happens fast. You usually don’t see inflation, high inflation, higher inflation, and then hyperinflation. Instead yo…

> sheer magnitude will overcome the lenders’ belief

Japan lends to itself. The BoJ owns so much of the government bond market that there are days where the benchmark bond simply doesn't trade [1]. Under absolutely no circumstance will Japan have any issue repaying Yen denominated debt when they have a monopoly on the Yen. They're theoretically not far away from just retiring the whole bond market and just running an overdraft at the BoJ for all government borrowing requirements.

Can you provide evidence to your point on hyperinflation happening all of a sudden too? I think all instances in history (except maybe Zimbabwe, but I've lost the details) involve external obligations that are unable to be met (War repatriations payable in gold for Germany, extreme dependance on imports for Venezuela since the economy was so misbalanced, high USD denominated debt burdens for Argentina ... etc). I

[1]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/nobodys-trading-10-year-japanes...

Re: No one knows how much the government can borrow

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://chapwoodindex.com/ There are resources outside the CPI or individual verticals, to measure inflation.

> There are resources outside the CPI or individual verticals, to measure inflation. No, there are not. CPI is about measuring consumables that one needs to live: food, shelter (either rent or mortgage carrying costs), utilities, clothing, etc. If you want to measure something outside of this basket of goods, then use another word, because "inflation" / CPI is already taken and you're overloading it and causing confu…

> No, there are not.

Yes, there are. What a tiresome exchange.

What the CPI represents is rather narrow, which is described right in the CPI reports, along with links to their numbers https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.nr0.htm

Ultimately the faith in the CPI depends on what you want to ignore. The sampling is 29% of the wage earners from the most populated centers. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/07/consumerpriceindex.... Of course it's biased toward consumerism, but that's a huge problem with calculating the cost of anything today. Even with that caveat, is that a 1.8% increase in shelter cost from 2019-2020? That's not realistic.

Like the unemployment rate, these stats have long ago become politicized to the point they are a reflection of what needs to be portrayed. These numbers (CPI, GDP, Unemployment, etc) can and are manually changed by whatever ad-hoc method that is convenient. It's important to have some insight as to what's going on that would result in a huge disconnect, rather than handwave off the "cranks" who must be complete morons because they are "the other side".

> So if the GDP grew "only" ~2.5%, then any inflation above that, would mean were actually in a recession/depression for the last decade

What you consider a recession and I consider a recession are different things. Consumerism skyrocketed and domestic manufacturing cratered. Commercial property has also bottomed out. The velocity of money has slowed ~2012 until we're at the height of efficiency in velocity...which is molasses. Money doesn't move on anything that isn't land, because that's the lowest risk at this time and middle markets/individuals are failing or barely subsiding.

> If inflation is >5% (per the truthers), then the economic growth would have had to been on top of that, for a nominal growth rate of >7%.

Economic growth is about debt growth, like it or not. All the new debt is in real estate (stocks and bonds for companies and individuals), which is where the inflation is living. see property prices in Los Angeles growing at about 7% year over year, same as a bag of cheetos and wholesale soda costs...but the monopolies are still duking out loss leading with $1 fountain sodas so nobody cares.

Property is immune to the deflation (cannot be outsourced, et al) and the only debt that banks are interested in, on a risk basis. Due to the ungodly improvements in efficiency (and outsourcing) most goods have been subject to massive deflation and have made the functional monopolies (and new tech) look super valuable, driving the tech stock frenzy. Unfortunately, those efficiencies have been maxxed out, more or less. You won't be seeing TVs drop from 700 to 70 (like they did from 7k to 700), the will go back up along with the food prices that have been slowly rising. This rise has been balanced out by the fantastically low prices of goods (eg 40oz Bag of Cheetos have risen just under 10% year over year) or loss leaders duking it out ($1 sodas from Hardees/McDs). Too bad your fast food is still routinely over 15$ a person.

I don't think it's prudent to throw my hands up and say "I just don't understand why things are the way they are, when I have a single number to tell me everything is ok." The CPI is a garbage index. There are reasons why the markets are the way they are and it's not hard to see, regardless of what the US gov wants to say about it.

Re: No one knows how much the government can borrow

#258
post #168
post #32

This misconception needs to die. The government doesn't borrow money. The government doesn't need your money. The government prints money. They could stop accepting taxes tomorrow and still be able to keep spending. They print the money. Treasuries exist as an accounting fantasy for people to believe the government needs to borrow, they don't. Any treasuries outstanding today basically just represent dollars to be pr…

My understanding is that, while government debt is in some ways a fiction, it serves an important purpose in setting the risk-free rate of return in the economy. Yes, the debt could be eliminated and replaced with constant money printing, but this would eliminate that important market signal. By pinning rates low as the Fed has done, that signal has been disrupted, and that is probably why we've seen repeated financi…

> Also, it runs the risk of money being diverted to projects that only make sense because the risk-free rate of return is so low that extremely risky ventures seem "worth it."

This makes it sound like low interest rates encourage high-risk high-reward ventures. However, they also very much lead to unprofitable businesses surviving, where the possibility of high reward is simply not there; zombie companies. This allows badly managed companies to coexist along with well managed ones, increasing market inefficiencies and lowering productivity of an economy by not letting markets eliminate rotten apples and allowing better business models to take over.

Re: No one knows how much the government can borrow

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such a product exists (SDR aka Special Drawing Rights), but it’s niche The primary reason that SDRs are niche is that only governments are allowed to hold them. If the IMF allowed them to be bought and sold by private investors they might see more use.

Agreed, but I'm unaware if there is any regulatory constraint preventing commercial financial entities from offering a similar product. The IMF doesn't need to provide approval if there is no regulation preventing financial institutions from providing the same currency mix to retail and institutional as a product (with the provider managing the abstraction between individual currencies and the basket).

One problem is that the IMF adjusts the currencies in the SDR basket over time. It would be feasible for a private issuer to offer something based on the current SDR basket. But next time the IMF reweighs the basket, they will have a problem. The reweighing operation is designed to not the change the value, but a private issuer that wanted to follow the SDR basket as it changes would have to move quickly in the market to reweigh its assets, and there would be a risk they would lose out in the process. (Maybe they could hedge against that risk, but that would incur an added cost.)

I think the biggest reason why this product isn't offered, is there is no great demand for it. Anyone can do the same thing themselves just by buying the underlying currencies. But, investors probably would take more interest in genuine SDRs issued by the IMF than in some private company's simulation of them. Real SDRs would have far less counterparty risk and operating expenses than such a simulated SDR would have.

Re: No one knows how much the government can borrow

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20% is 1 of 5, hardly easy to miss. A lot of that money goes toward expenses in HCOL areas, where more people live, and the salaries are higher. A lot goes into consumer goods. People buy stuff, a lot of it. A lot of the rest is in the stock market in retirement accounts because nobody has pensions anymore. Americans don’t save a lot of money, and are not particularly fiscally responsible, that money is not hiding in…

Personally, my issue with the term "sloshing" is that it implies the money is floating around in liquid form ready to tick up inflation. It's not. There are a lot of places where this money has gone that are illiquid though. One would be American property; for most households a good chunk of their wealth is their house. In high-COL, high-property areas the main thing preventing a fall in house price is the lack of su…

Exactly all of this.

A lot of people (myself included) are just kind of nervously waiting for the other shoe to drop. That the money exists but isn’t moving through the economy means that we’re essentially building more pressure in a system that is already at 0% interest rates. This should be concerning to everyone.

The absence of velocity will encourage central banks to print more money in the belief that it will encourage spending when it clearly hasn’t done that.

If in the future we start exiting our homes and going on vacations again the velocity could shoot up sharply - at which point a lot more money is moving into the system all at once. By then, there’s a good chance the horse has bolted for capping inflation.

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