FBI agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol • Hacker News Board

Re: FBI agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol

#71

Post by sneak » Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #57

sneak wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how putting everyone in a huge radius, journalists and those otherwise uninvolved included, under investigative suspicion and location surveillance to respond to what is only charitably described as an insurrection (the group was almost entirely unarmed) is in any way reasonable. It seems like a massive overreaction. If we're truly interested in democracy and the rule of law, we'd do well to not shred our…

What is the harm that is incurred when the tower records are transferred from the operator to the government? Is it just too scary of a slope to stand on or something? To me it seems to fit under 'reasonable' for the government to issue a warrant for presence information in the locality of the capitol. Given the 3rd party doctrine that probably isn't what happened, but the objection there would be more procedural tha…

The US government has publicly admitted that they assassinate people based solely on metadata.

https://www.justsecurity.org/10318/video-clip-director-nsa-c...

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2014/05/10/we-kill-people-base...

The state collecting this information is a public hazard, especially considering the relatively recent development of the assassination of US citizens without trial.

Re: FBI agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol

#72

Post by gibrown » Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

tiziniano wrote: post #45

gibrown wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Insane? The capitol was assaulted in order to prevent the democratically elected president. An actual insurrection which maybe had some attempted assassination and theft/sale of national security secrets mixed in. Seems like a pretty reasonable response.

Not to be a grammar nazi, but I fail to see how this sentence works "The capitol was assaulted in order to prevent the democratically elected president." On an emotional level, I can see how you see it as a threat to your illusions. Someone was trying to prevent your president from existing. It does sound scary and fits in line with the gnostic thought pervading the American left. "The world is broken, but we will fi…

Pretty sure you have veered into being a bit more than just a grammar nazi.

Re: FBI agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol

#73

Post by gwright » Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #17

hcurtiss wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was an actual insurrection or attempted assassination, it was the weakest effort imaginable. That doesn’t necessarily change the thrust of your comment (that enforcement is appropriate) but the breathless hyperbole around what happened has really surprised me. An actual insurrection would have looked very different. More guns and C4, fewer selfies.

Just because you failed at crime doesn’t mean you didn’t commit a crime. Attempted murder is still a thing. And I think you should probably read more about what actually happened. The initial photos were of idiots in horns and face paint and that has colored the public perception of what happened, but the clownshow gave cover to a smaller number of organized militia types compromised of former and active duty militar…

I think it is reasonable to argue that there were a number of people in the crowd that had ill intent. Not sure which crime fits the facts though (sedition, attempted murder, etc.) That will depend on actual facts, which is why we have trials, etc.

I don't think it is reasonable to think that everyone on the Capitol grounds had that same ill intent. More likely that the organized minority instigated the crowd and used them as cover for their shameful and ridiculous efforts.

Needless to say, the predominent narrative seems to be that anyone in the crowd was an "insurrectionist". That goes too far IMHO.

Re: FBI agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol

#74

Post by caseysoftware » Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #46

taneq wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point - this is the same group that is very gun rights focused and has been wandering around the streets armed with automatic weapons. It's kind of weird to see them without guns.

I don't know what the framework was, but open carry wasn't allowed prior to the rally. This article quotes the police chief saying as much: https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/protests/march-for-t... I would also expect anyone coming from the rally had been through some security screening.

Relevant data points:

- Open Carry is always illegal in DC.

- DC does issue concealed carry permits but doesn't honor them from other states (called reciprocity).

- This was talked about far and wide in advance on Twitter, Facebook, and elsewhere framed as "don't bring guns to DC! You will go to jail!" and supported by flyers posted throughout DC. (You can still find pictures of them online.)

Re: FBI agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol

#75

Post by bilbo0s » Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #42

gibrown wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Insane? The capitol was assaulted in order to prevent the democratically elected president. An actual insurrection which maybe had some attempted assassination and theft/sale of national security secrets mixed in. Seems like a pretty reasonable response.

I don't see how putting everyone in a huge radius, journalists and those otherwise uninvolved included, under investigative suspicion and location surveillance to respond to what is only charitably described as an insurrection (the group was almost entirely unarmed) is in any way reasonable. It seems like a massive overreaction. If we're truly interested in democracy and the rule of law, we'd do well to not shred our…

I don't see how putting everyone in a huge radius, journalists and those otherwise uninvolved included, under investigative suspicion and location surveillance to respond to what is only charitably described as an insurrection (the group was almost entirely unarmed) is in any way reasonable.

Huh?

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you on overreach. But this action is completely reasonable because it's standard operating procedure for many law enforcement departments around the nation. Most of us simply do not reside in the neighborhoods where these tactics are employed. None of what we are discussing today is even Patriot Act type stuff. It's just standard law enforcement investigative technique. Worse, our law enforcement infrastructure already took the exact same actions during the BLM riots. None of the people complaining now, uttered a peep at the time.

I said all of that to say this, as a privacy activist, I learned decades ago that the best method of protecting my rights is to protect the rights of others. The issue today, is that most who complain are called out as hypocritical. With good reason. We can't go back now. Law enforcement would be accused of racism. Whatever tactics we used on others, we have to use now. And law enforcement gets to use them because people were not forward thinking enough to protest these methods when they were designed and employed during the latest stages of the drug war. Or even just a few scant weeks ago during the BLM riots.

I'd just encourage everyone to be more forward thinking on these issues. Sometimes complaining only when the issue affects you creates more problems than it solves. It makes it more difficult to get legislative changes made because certain key organizations, and people, whose cooperation we need have to double down on their positions so as not be called out as hypocritical themselves. AS a consequence, we come into headwinds trying to get the changes necessary to outlaw these practices.

Re: FBI agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol

#76

Post by breck » Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

bpodgursky wrote: post #69

breck wrote: post #40

This is cool! Good job on the FBI. Remember it's a good thing to have phones be pinging. 1. I want to be billed correctly 2. If my service drops often in a certain geo, I want engineers to be able to pinpoint exactly where the problem is and fix it. 3. If I get attacked by a shark, I want to provide breadcrumbs for rescuers to find me. 4. If my wife accuses me of going to the arcade, it is important that my dog runni…

IMO the embedding of electronics and tracking in every aspect of our lives becomes too complex for the average non-techie to make informed decisions about the technology they use. Maybe it should be "obvious" with a phone, but what if your bluetooth headset tried to pair against someone's electronics and got detected? What about the GPS history from your Apple Watch (should that data be available)? How many RFID-tagg…

A fair point.

Ideally we can build ways to make it easier to learn how tech works.

God knows it took me decades to figure it out.

Re: FBI agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol

#77

Post by suifbwish » Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #33

Forensic methods used by police and intelligence go much deeper than just looking at phones near the crime scene. 1. They look at phones moving towards the crime scene and going dark when getting close. This is also how you can detect secret meetings between people. They move towards the same area and shut down their phones. 2. They look at suspect phone going dark anywhere around the time of the incident. 3. Leaving…

3 raises a very interesting and somewhat concerning possibility. In the near future as AI develops more in the crime detection arena you may become a suspect for crimes occurring in your geographical area based on things you are not doing or based on some set of states your smart devices have that match a statistical model of a suspicious person. The idea of becoming a suspect because you didn’t touch your smartphone during a particular timeframe is chilling.

Re: FBI agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol

#78

Post by trident5000 » Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #30

caseysoftware wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"More guns" is right. I watched it live and then dug through the videos, selfies, etc after and inside the Capitol, I found one guy who might have had a gun. The other weapons appear to have been convenient - a fire extinguisher, flags, etc. It looks less and less like an "insurrection" and more like jackasses doing jackass things.

This is a good point - this is the same group that is very gun rights focused and has been wandering around the streets armed with automatic weapons. It's kind of weird to see them without guns.

Almost no civilian in the country has "automatic weapons" this is what people are saying when they mention theres a lot of hyperbole around this topic.

Re: FBI agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol

#79

Post by krapp » Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

ForHackernews wrote: post #67

It blows my mind that a bunch of conspiracy-minded folks (the sort of people who won't get a vaccine because they think it contains a tracking chip from Bill Gates) would stage an insurrection and not turn their phones off! Honestly, what did they think was going to happen? As the saying goes, "When you strike at a king, you must kill him." You don't get to fail miserably at your coup and then go back home to your re…

>Honestly, what did they think was going to happen?

They thought they would succeed. The Democrats would be marched en masse to the gallows and revealed to the world to be the satanic blood drinking pedophiles the faithful always knew they were. The world would see the insurrectionists as patriots and heroes for stopping the CCP in league with the Democratic Party from stealing the election and denying Donald Trump his rightful second term .

Many of these people literally believe they're involved in a holy war and that Trump was sent by God, so for them, victory was a metaphysical certainty. The rest were certain Trump would pardon them in any case. Why bother with OPSEC when the Lord will prepare a table for you in the presence of your enemies and your leader has infinite "get out of jail free" cards to hand out?

Re: FBI agents track cell phones that pinged near the Capitol

#80

Post by CydeWeys » Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #30

caseysoftware wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"More guns" is right. I watched it live and then dug through the videos, selfies, etc after and inside the Capitol, I found one guy who might have had a gun. The other weapons appear to have been convenient - a fire extinguisher, flags, etc. It looks less and less like an "insurrection" and more like jackasses doing jackass things.

This is a good point - this is the same group that is very gun rights focused and has been wandering around the streets armed with automatic weapons. It's kind of weird to see them without guns.

Walking around with a gun in DC is an automatic felony with potentially years in jail, especially if it's in connection with a violent act which this insurrection was. DC is not a gun-friendly place. These people were stupid, but not that stupid.