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Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

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Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you send an apple back in time the conservation of energy is broken. The energy sum of everything increases in the past.

Only if you consider conserving the energy sum of all possible spatial locations to be the rule we need to keep. If instead the rule is that we need to conserve the energy sum of all possible locations in space-time , then no law is broken.

That's an interesting point. I'd even go a step further and say that which of those two definitions is true determines whether time travel is possible. Put another way, conservation across space-time (instead of a single point in time) is necessary for time travel to exist, and the existence of time travel is the only reason conservation would be across space-time.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#202
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you think that special relativity is misleading, or, if not, how do you reconcile this point with special relativity?

I think you partly misunderstood his comment. Basically instead of time we can look at it as a change of states, just a linear process. There is no time. If you place something on a table (in a perfect environment with no decay) you can't tell how much time it sat there. It could have sat there for 1 hour or 1 million years. It just didn't move and no one tracked the "time". Time is just a concept in our minds to tra…

My thought is that in special relativity, there is no absolute present, only the present from different reference frames. Essentially, “now” isn’t an objective thing. “Happen simultaneously” is not an observer-independent equivalence relation, and so there is no observer-independent way of splitting things into “the present (which exists)” vs “the past” vs “the future”.

If you want to refer only to that which you presently observe as “existing”, then there is only the boundary of your past light cone, but this would be a bit solipsistic imo, as any other person you observe, the boundary of their past light cone would mostly not be part of the boundary of yours (it would be in it, just not on the boundary of it), and so they would seem to see things that “don’t exist”. This doesn’t seem sensible to me.

I don’t see any good alternative to treating the past and future as being fully real.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#203
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still thinking of this as a chain of events unfolding, rather than as a playback of a set of immutable, self-consistent events. > The whole premise seems to be that this is allowed: No. That was not the premise. The premise was an immutable representation of self-consistent state transitions, so what occurs in step 2 will always have occurred at that point in time, because otherwise the system isn't immutable.…

And I’ll reiterate: I accept all of these premises! I’ve never denied them! All you and Eli have managed to do at this point is try to nitpick the linguistic deficiencies of my explanations, which are inevitable anyway since I’m not a physicist with a specialization in space-time theories. And whether I “get it” or not is secondary to the point of whether you have truly managed to confirm or disconfirm the time trave…

You've made a hell of a mess of all this. The premise presented is simple. The past is fixed, the universe is consistent, if you travel back in time that always happened.

You're saying there's a puzzle about something that the premise at hand simply says is impossible. You might as well imagine being able to create energy out of nothing and then say that's a puzzle in a universe in which we have conservation of energy. Just because you can imagine something impossible doesn't make it a paradox.

And I’ll reiterate: I accept all of these premises

No you don't. You keep saying "but what if you go back and change the past?"

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there's a mechanism to explain it: determinism. It's got nothing to do with 'knowing' anything, it's just that we experience life as a vivid playthrough of causes and effects that could never have started or ended any differently. Now, you might not agree with that explanation, but it can't be precluded, and it solves all of your concerns above.

This explains absolutely nothing. You time travel back and kill your former self. Paradox. How to resolve? Determinism. That’s just invalid. “Knowing” here just referred to the magical force that will keep time travel suicide from happening. But without a magical force you’re even more stumped!

You are still thinking as though someone can 'choose' to go back in time and kill themselves. Choice has no bearing on it. Either something happened, or it didn't.

It is still consistent that a cause is needed for an effect, so an effect cannot eliminate a cause.

You're just describing something that can't/doesn't happen. There are plenty of rules that describe things that can't or don't happen in space.

You wouldn't have any concerns with me saying it's impossible for me to go to the bathroom in my own house and when I walk out, I am in your house.

How does the bathroom door magically know which house I am in?

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you consider conserving the energy sum of all possible spatial locations to be the rule we need to keep. If instead the rule is that we need to conserve the energy sum of all possible locations in space-time , then no law is broken.

That's an interesting point. I'd even go a step further and say that which of those two definitions is true determines whether time travel is possible. Put another way, conservation across space-time (instead of a single point in time) is necessary for time travel to exist, and the existence of time travel is the only reason conservation would be across space-time.

I'm not sure that time travel is the only reason - it might turn out to explain some other peculiarities in the universe (spooky action at a distance jumps into my mind as something that could potentially have an explanation linked to this).

It also would seem to be impossible to calculate energy at a specific moment. Energy = mc^2, or expressed differently, e = m * d^2 * t^-2. If t = 0, then t^-2 is not calculable.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try dealing with something of consequence, like killing your former self (as in: the person in that point of time-space which carries the mutable signifier of “yourself” which is younger than yourself) or giving yourself a kilogram of gold from the future, which I think would violate the law of preservation of energy or whatever. You can make up impossible scenarios without time travel too. Like someone that shoots…

Shooting yourself and then later going out to lunch is simply impossible; it is not a paradox. A paradox is when two contradictory things are true at the same time. The grandfather problem is a paradox if time travel is possible. If it isn’t possible then it is simply an impossibility. > And for largely the same reason: both scenarios violate causality, so the universe can't be shaped that way. So you agree that time…

The key here is that, if time travel is possible, you would experience the events like this :

1. You start your day normally

2. You meet yourself from the future and discuss some niceties.

3. Many years later, you enter a time machine, and you arrive back at time 2, where you have that conversation with yourself that you remember.

The past has already happened, so it can't change. So, if you haven't met a time traveler so far, that is proof that no one will ever time travel to the moment and place where you just were, even if time travel becomes possible in the future.

Now, you may ask, 'what happens if at step 3 I decide to shoot myself, or not have that conversation?'. Here the answer is simple : that question makes no sense. You have already done our not fine these things, there is no power of decision that could influence this. It's like asking "what if I now decide that yesterday I didn't go to the store". The fact that the event at time 2 happened is fixed both in the past and the future. It was in fact fixed at the time of the universe's creation.

Now, you may not accept determinism, or you may believe in free will, and there are good reasons for both (quantum indeterminism, subjective experience, etc.). In either case, I don't think you can believe in time travel, since all of the paradoxes reappear. But if you believe the past and the future are already set in stone, there is no paradox if the two cross each other in certain ways. But it doesn't make sense about what you 'will decide to do', because this is as fixed as what you ate yesterday.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shooting yourself and then later going out to lunch is simply impossible; it is not a paradox. A paradox is when two contradictory things are true at the same time. The grandfather problem is a paradox if time travel is possible. If it isn’t possible then it is simply an impossibility. > And for largely the same reason: both scenarios violate causality, so the universe can't be shaped that way. So you agree that time…

The key here is that, if time travel is possible, you would experience the events like this : 1. You start your day normally 2. You meet yourself from the future and discuss some niceties. 3. Many years later, you enter a time machine, and you arrive back at time 2, where you have that conversation with yourself that you remember. The past has already happened, so it can't change. So, if you haven't met a time travel…

I think that argument is just recapitulating what a paradox is. It doesn't address "what if you try to do something that didn't happen", which is the root question.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key here is that, if time travel is possible, you would experience the events like this : 1. You start your day normally 2. You meet yourself from the future and discuss some niceties. 3. Many years later, you enter a time machine, and you arrive back at time 2, where you have that conversation with yourself that you remember. The past has already happened, so it can't change. So, if you haven't met a time travel…

I think that argument is just recapitulating what a paradox is. It doesn't address "what if you try to do something that didn't happen", which is the root question.

No, the argument is saying that the question you are asking makes no sense. You can't "try" to do anything differently, because these things have already happened.

Again, it's just like asking "what if I try to not go to the shop yesterday, what would happen to the bread I'm eating?". Can you decide today to not do something yesterday? No. In the same way, a time traveler can't "choose" to modify the past - it's something that's already happened.

Of course, this does imply that the future is also set in stone, so in fact you can't choose to go the shop or not tomorrow any more than you can choose to have done so yesterday. This is not a paradox, it's just counter to our subjective experience.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that argument is just recapitulating what a paradox is. It doesn't address "what if you try to do something that didn't happen", which is the root question.

No, the argument is saying that the question you are asking makes no sense. You can't "try" to do anything differently, because these things have already happened. Again, it's just like asking "what if I try to not go to the shop yesterday, what would happen to the bread I'm eating?". Can you decide today to not do something yesterday? No. In the same way, a time traveler can't "choose" to modify the past - it's some…

Again recapitulating what a paradox is. If time travel works at all (the premise) then I can look up a historical event, and send a hand grenade back through time to that event. What then? The response "you obviously can't do that" isn't answering anything. What happens when I do? Deliberately, to defy the argument that it's impossible. What then? That's the whole issue.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the argument is saying that the question you are asking makes no sense. You can't "try" to do anything differently, because these things have already happened. Again, it's just like asking "what if I try to not go to the shop yesterday, what would happen to the bread I'm eating?". Can you decide today to not do something yesterday? No. In the same way, a time traveler can't "choose" to modify the past - it's some…

Again recapitulating what a paradox is. If time travel works at all (the premise) then I can look up a historical event, and send a hand grenade back through time to that event. What then? The response "you obviously can't do that" isn't answering anything. What happens when I do? Deliberately, to defy the argument that it's impossible. What then? That's the whole issue.

Please answer this question: what happens if, today, you decide to not have gone to the store yesterday? What stops you from deciding this?

The way this particular idea of time travel works is like this:

1. A time traveler throws a grenade, killing Joan of Arc.

2. History happens.

3. The time traveler who killed Joan of Arc is born.

4. The time traveler goes back in time and kills Joan of Arc.

5. We hear of this event.

If we are looking at this when at time 5, do we find it surprising that it happened? Do we need any explanation? We can ask "what would have happened if the time traveler had instead killed Chairman Mao?", and we can get into a discussion on the possible future life of Joan of Arc etc. But since the event has already happened, we don't need a fundamental explanation for "why didn't it go differently", "what stopped the time traveler from doing differently" etc.

If you then accept that the future is just like the past - it is already decided - then the same banality happens if we learn of this event at time 3. We can ask "I wonder what would happen if this child wouldn't one day kill Joan of Arc", but it is simple musing about alternative histories, like asking "I wonder what would have happened if Hitler hadn't killed himself". The fact is that Hitler did kill himself, and that the child will kill Joan of Arc.

If you imagine the future as changeable, or if you imagine that beings can choose what they will do, then the paradox arises. But if you consider the future as set in stone, and if you consider that humans can't chose to do one way or another, than there is no paradox: history COULD have been different, but it just isn't. The same thing that stops you from changing the past also stops you from changing the future.

Note: I am not claiming that this view is "correct". Just that, if you accept it, than time travel really doesn't give rise to any paradox.

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