Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

news.ycombinator.com

101–110 of 194 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#101
post #72

An idea I had recently that relates to this - sites use some of your compute power to mine crypto in your browser and credit your wallet some rate, other sites like news sites draw from your wallet when you browse

when apple trademarked applecoin I had a harebrained idea that they were gonna offer an ad free internet by letting sites mine on their own ASIC on your phone subject to their terms (no other ads). So far nah. I think the basic attention token was something like this?

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#102
post #61

Taxes are a big reason. Consider a site in the US with customers in the US. Quite a few states require you to collect sales tax on sales to customers in those states. Most have thresholds and you only have to collect taxes if you exceed those thresholds, but unfortunately most of those thresholds are of the form sales of at least $D dollars or at least T transactions. $D is usually reasonably high, like $100k or $200…

You only have to collect state sales tax if you have a taxable nexus in that state (basically, six figure revenue from that state alone in a fiscal year or a physical presence in that state) I doubt many non-US companies meet this condition in more than a few states. Hell, I doubt many US companies even meet this requirement (nb, that's why a lot of smaller ecommerce stores don't collect tax). That would be a minimum…

In 2018, in the case South Dakota v. Wayfair Inc. [1] the Supreme Court overturned Quill Corp. v. North Dakota and National Bellas Hess Inc. v. Department of Revenue of Illinois, which were the cases that had previously established that remote sellers without a physical presence in a state could tell the state to shove off if it demanded they collect sales tax (or use tax), and upheld South Dakota's law that required remote sellers to pay tax if they has sales of at least $100k or at least 200 transactions.

A large number of other states have followed South Dakota's lead, and went with $100k or 200 transactions for their sales tax nexus laws.

[1] https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/south-dakota-v-w...

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#103

People don't like to do transactions. It taxes our brains and makes us make decisions constantly. We like all you can eat and watch as much as you like. Paying for things sucks even if you just pay small amounts.

Thank you. For the longest time I thought there was just something wrong with me. Rarely would you find a comment in an article about micropayments that pointed out that micropayments sound, stressful! It causes me anxiety just having to think about having to consider making payments everytime I click on an article, for example, even if it's a tiny $0.01 amount each time.

Really? Rarely? I remember this being one of the few top-billed reasons why micropayments "will never work", to the point where it was the #1 thing I would always have to address in every discussion of our product.

So, on such note; when you turn on the light when entering a room, do you have anxiety thinking about how that costs money? We are constantly making tiny momentary transactions without thinking about it at all: the issue is UI, not transactions.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#104
The problem is the mental overhead, not the fee. If every single article click adds an extra mental overhead of "is this worth paying for? how much have i spent this month on reading?", people will simply stop clicking. Headlines are already super optimized to get you to click. The impact of a mental tax before every click would be at least -10x a good headline and seriously puts the media company at risk of bankruptcy. A fixed fee per month is psychologically and logistically easy to manage. There may be other concerns about cost per transaction & payment networks, but they are secondary honestly.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#105
post #4

Processing a credit card costs $0.02 per card, plus interchange of up to 3%. Debit processing is $0.22 cents plus 0.05%. Both of these are the baseline cost, your merchant processor often won't be able to even get these rates for their own wholesale rates. Now try and build a micropayments ecosystem ontop of this infrastructure that is very expensive to interact with (in the context of $0.01 charges). Amazon can do i…

The answer to this, which I am a little surprised no one has tried to implement (maybe someone has tried?), is to charge the end customer in some larger amount - say $5 or $10, and then draw down the micro transaction amount as you go. So if you could pay $5 a month (or at a time) but gain access to every article, site, video, piece of content etc, and it auto deducts from your balance then you don't have the transac…

From what I can tell as a lay observer, such schemes are likely illegal in the US. Excepting certain entities with specific legal carveouts or very careful navigation of the legal system such as Paypal and Venmo, every scheme that I am aware of in the US is just maintaining an account with a single provider that you charge and draw down for services from that single provider (e.g. Walmart could allow you to make a Walmart account that you can use to pay for goods from Walmart). Circumstantial evidence leads me to believe that the two key aspects that are illegal are: withdrawal (recovering your balance into a fungible form) and 3rd party payment (account is managed by a different legal entity than the entity being paid) with the latter being the more impactful of the two. The reason the lack of 3rd party payment is deeply problematic is that without 3rd party payment the account must be associated with the ultimate provider of the goods/services, so the consumer can not consolidate or rebalance their funds. Therefore, it is highly undesirable for a consumer to maintain a rolling balance which is the only reason for such a scheme in the first place.

As secondary evidence for it being illegal in the US, the scheme you are proposing is pretty much exactly what WeChat and Alipay do in China. It is also exactly the problem that Paypal and Venmo were made to solve, but for some reason they chose much more convoluted and restricted solutions even though from a technical standpoint it is harder to do what they actually did rather than the absolutely trivial technical problem of the fully featured solution which just manages account balances and transfers between them, a literal CS 101 type of technical problem.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#106

As sometime who has worked full time on this for over 5 years now, I have found a few aspects of your answer: The technical challenges of doing it with credit cards are overwhelming (in CC parlance, a "microtransaction" is anything under $10) due to fee structure. You can simplify this by using a different payment rail (in my case, Lightning over Bitcoin), but now you have a different problem: nobody has Bitcoin. You…

Obviously you are aware of this, but here is a concrete example of micropayments in practice: When I use (for example) Vultr cloud compute ( https://www.vultr.com/ ), I load my Vultr account with $10 via credit card. Once the money enters the account it remains there until it is spent Then I pay 1 or 2 cents each hour for a cloud instance. At the end of each month, Vultr tells we what's due if I exceed what remains i…

The example given (Vultr) is equivalent to a Starbucks card. You’re prepaying a company for a service. The transaction is the prepayment. How you use that balance is now irrelevant.

Micro transactions to a range of different independent businesses requires using existing payment networks (visa / MasterCard / etc: relatively expensive; crypto: lack of widespread adoption) or building a new payment network.

> If you are willing to trust an intermediary (and most people are)

We already do. It’s called the bank. We also have regulation that helps. How many people keep real money in their personal PayPal accounts? How many people can even afford to?

EDIT: I retract my Vultr / Starbucks equivalence.

> At the end of each month, Vultr tells we what's due if I exceed what remains in the account. If necessary I load more money in

Starbucks will not let your spend exceed your deposits on your card. Your statement suggests Vultr will. Credit accounts are a whole other risk. What happens if you don’t pay off your balance after you’ve already consumed the service?

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe whats needed is a system that tallies up the sites you've visited and at the end of the month you can just say, allocate 5 bucks among them. Or if you've had a rough month, maybe don't give anything. Maybe you can distribute you payments once a year. Or make slight adjustments to it and not give a site any money if you feel.

There've been several projects that did exactly that. Like Brave with their BAT tokens. But it never took off. Personally I don't like them because these things don't normally opt you out of ad tracking as well. When I pay I want to be the customer and not be tracked. I also don't want to give any personal details. They know nothing about me when I buy a newspaper in the shop. It should be like this :)

Yeah, this is sort of a deal breaker. Another response to my original comment was a link to Flattr and from wikipedia it's a site "that records which websites they frequent and shares this data with Flattr" -- no thanks.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#108
post #78

Is the Brave browser a pseudo-solution to this problem? It can hold a crypto coin balance and either collect more of it through advertisements or pay it out to publishers like news sites.

Why pseudo -solution?

Maybe because it requires the content provider to join a new ad/payment network and most haven't.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#110
post #77
post #72

An idea I had recently that relates to this - sites use some of your compute power to mine crypto in your browser and credit your wallet some rate, other sites like news sites draw from your wallet when you browse

Wouldn't it be more efficient to just send money directly? I mean, the user will still end up paying someone. But with the mining strategy, instead of directly paying sites, the user will pay the electric company.

I haven’t thought about it enough, but the other comments talk about credit card fees. And then browsing the internet becomes like a utility. Hopefully the amount you net from (mining - cost of browsing) offsets the extra power usage cost
Post reply on HN