Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

news.ycombinator.com

91–100 of 194 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#92
TLDR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transaction_cost

The transaction costs of small transactions quickly overwhelm the value of the transaction. This gives rise to market structure included (especially) the firm and the bundling within of non-market transactions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_firm

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to this, which I am a little surprised no one has tried to implement (maybe someone has tried?), is to charge the end customer in some larger amount - say $5 or $10, and then draw down the micro transaction amount as you go. So if you could pay $5 a month (or at a time) but gain access to every article, site, video, piece of content etc, and it auto deducts from your balance then you don't have the transac…

>charge the end customer in some larger amount - say $5 or $10, and then draw down the micro transaction amount as you go. Wow, I just realized why Steam does this for in-game purchases.

That's also so they can deny refunds for cash balances — once you pay money to their company, you may never receive it back under any circumstances. That way they can 'refund' you games at any time, but not ever have to record a cash transaction to do so. This is, not coincidentally, universal among online video game and microtransaction stores, with the singular exception of Apple who does not compel all purchases through an intermediate currency balance.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#94
There are some great answers here already, I'll just add a what I think is different perspective on it.

Each newspaper is already charging you $0.01 an article, from their perspective. They give you an issue every day that has 100s of articles and it costs you like, a $1? $2? So each article is indeed super cheap for you to consume.

As others observe, you as a consumer probably aren't asking to be gated at every article - you are probably imagining some sort of general fund from which the paper draws down. Now if you really like just one paper or magazine, then you are back to a subscription model in this case.

So your use case is most probably that you want to read a FEW articles from LOTS of sites. Like, 20 from the NYT, 20 from WSJ, 30 from Slate etc.

Now the problem is to have an entity that is a 3rd party relative to these sites, which manages the common kitty. I vaguely remember some companies trying this, I can't remmeber the names, but you can see why this won't be easy. First, there's conflict of interest. It's tough to decide to enable a platform which also enables subscriptions to competing sources. Second, the platform company itself has to strike these deals individually because AT&T/the Mercers/George Soros haven't yet bought up all the news sources, which is a lot of friction.

And third, the execs at the sites have to decide that this complicated arrangement is really going to attract a completely new set of subscribers who actually like their content but just haven't signed up because the subscription price is too much. Why is it intuitive that _at scale_, a non subscriber's main barrier is not their affinity to or interest in the content itself, but this reluctance to commit to the subscription model? Why even should I assume that this unserved market has significant marginal utility to me as a company, relative to all the other ways I am making money? Even if all this is true, as an exec, I'd probably first experiment with tiered subscription on my site, and have multiple gates, rather than buy into some micro payment kitty system.

[Edit] As I ruminated on my own analysis, I realized that what you are looking for is the "cable TV" business equivalent for news sites. So maybe it's not totally undoable, if it's already happened with another media industry, but I think it'll be worth thinking about whether such a model works on time sensitive content or not. The typical participant in a cable TV system has a TON of resale value but with news articles, it's mostly one-and-done. Is there really enough aggregation value that a new business can survive on it? Just how many different versions of this riot and that election and those chicken fajita recipes and these 50 cool ways to decorate your bathroom are you, the consumer, going to pay for?

It could work if you started with some long-form subset of this content, and I think that's somewhat the inspiration behind sites like Medium and Substack. Not entirely ofc, because they are betting on the long tail of producers, not consumers, but there's also the aspect of the latter, in that this content tends to have long-term value.

As with any new business idea, there's no "will work/won't work" answer here. It's more like, "What form does this work in?"

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#95
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nano is a cryptocurrency that is completely feeless. It's the only feeless payment system I know of. (This is not an endorsement, though the handful of transactions I've done with it over the past couple years worked as advertised.)

How are miners incentivized to maintain the network?

I was curious and looked into this myself. According to Coinbase[1]:

> users provide the computational power required to verify their own transactions, allowing transactions to be processed without fees

[1] https://www.coinbase.com/price/nano

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#96

Because a lot of news sites know you're not loading them intentionally in your browser, but landing on them because of shares or search. Meaning you may only see their pages 10x a month or similar even without a paywall. The hope with the paywall is if you keep seeing it, you'll go ahead and pay to unlock it, and the amount you're paying offsets the transaction fees. 1000 users each paying 20 cents for ten articles (…

The funny thing is that they're exposing their content for indexers but hiding it for users.

When I encounter these websites I just write another greasemonkey / tampermonkey script to delete the popup and unlock the content.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#97

As sometime who has worked full time on this for over 5 years now, I have found a few aspects of your answer: The technical challenges of doing it with credit cards are overwhelming (in CC parlance, a "microtransaction" is anything under $10) due to fee structure. You can simplify this by using a different payment rail (in my case, Lightning over Bitcoin), but now you have a different problem: nobody has Bitcoin. You…

Obviously you are aware of this, but here is a concrete example of micropayments in practice:

When I use (for example) Vultr cloud compute (https://www.vultr.com/), I load my Vultr account with $10 via credit card. Once the money enters the account it remains there until it is spent

Then I pay 1 or 2 cents each hour for a cloud instance. At the end of each month, Vultr tells we what's due if I exceed what remains in the account. If necessary I load more money in

This kind of simple micropayment scheme (with a trusted entity holding upfront credit card payments) is widely implemented

If you are willing to trust an intermediary (and most people are) then distributed ledgers (blockchains) are unnecessary

The benefit of Bitcoin (or blockchains generally) is that you don't need to trust anyone. In 2009 this was considered important, but today, does anyone care?

No

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#98

Is the Brave browser a pseudo-solution to this problem? It can hold a crypto coin balance and either collect more of it through advertisements or pay it out to publishers like news sites.

Brave doesn't have enough market share to matter for this, so far.

This was revealed in a recent HN thread where webmasters shared the browser breakdown for their traffic.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#99
post #61

Taxes are a big reason. Consider a site in the US with customers in the US. Quite a few states require you to collect sales tax on sales to customers in those states. Most have thresholds and you only have to collect taxes if you exceed those thresholds, but unfortunately most of those thresholds are of the form sales of at least $D dollars or at least T transactions. $D is usually reasonably high, like $100k or $200…

That's a good point.

Albeit a platform could do it for everyone (like Amazon does).

Also I agree you have it better in the USA (even if things are going downhill, especially after 2018 nexus changes), VATMOSS is so bad I'm selling to businesses worlwide + customers from everywhere but Europe.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't micropayments a thing?

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>charge the end customer in some larger amount - say $5 or $10, and then draw down the micro transaction amount as you go. Wow, I just realized why Steam does this for in-game purchases.

That's also so they can deny refunds for cash balances — once you pay money to their company, you may never receive it back under any circumstances. That way they can 'refund' you games at any time, but not ever have to record a cash transaction to do so. This is, not coincidentally, universal among online video game and microtransaction stores, with the singular exception of Apple who does not compel all purchases t…

Steam only requires the Steam Wallet for microtransactions. Games and DLC are usually bought "directly". Refunds go to the original payment method, unless you explicitly request that it should go to the wallet.

> with the singular exception of Apple who does not compel all purchases through an intermediate currency balance.

Google Play doesn't have one either, FWIW.

Post reply on HN