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Facebook shuts down the Socialist Workers Party in Britain

swp.org.uk

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Re: Facebook shuts down the Socialist Workers Party in Britain

#31

Post by 23B1 »

chroem- wrote: post #26
mhh__ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also mainly motivated by money, which allows us to make at least educated guesses as to what happened in matters like these

That's irrelevant, because a private company can't be compelled to support someone else's speech against their will. If you don't like it, then take political action. Edit: For those unaware, this is the devil's advocate take. HN has been remarkably pro-corporate censorship lately, and only a matter of weeks later its coming back to bite pro-censorship advocates.

I'm mostly tired of this take, especially by technologists.

First off: you're right. You can't compel a private company to support speech. But the entirety of political discourse happens online now. There's a clear and prevailing interest that free speech can happen online, at scale.

Re: Facebook shuts down the Socialist Workers Party in Britain

#32

Post by neves »

chroem- wrote: post #26
mhh__ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also mainly motivated by money, which allows us to make at least educated guesses as to what happened in matters like these

That's irrelevant, because a private company can't be compelled to support someone else's speech against their will. If you don't like it, then take political action. Edit: For those unaware, this is the devil's advocate take. HN has been remarkably pro-corporate censorship lately, and only a matter of weeks later its coming back to bite pro-censorship advocates.

That's why Facebook must become a public entity.

Re: Facebook shuts down the Socialist Workers Party in Britain

#33

Post by throwawaygh »

RobLach wrote: post #28
threeseed wrote: post #11

There was also a historical re-enactment page removed in December because they had militia in their title [1] Looks to just be an over-eager moderation engine. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-dorset-55215949

It’s always some external thing: “the algorithm”, as if that doesn’t just mean “the way we programmed it”. Computing systems are do not act on their own. That the system did this was because it was allowed to, or more accurately, told to.

> It’s always some external thing: “the algorithm”, as if that doesn’t just mean “the way we programmed it”.

This is true.

> Computing systems are do not act on their own.

That doesn't mean that computer systems behave the way that we intend them to behave, or even that we really fully understand our own intent!

How much of your own code have you formally verified? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_verification)

How much of your own code even has a precise enough purpose that the spec of what it's supposed to do is shorter than the length of the code? Such that you could even in theory formally verify that the implementation is in some sense "correct"?

For that matter.... how much of your code has a precise enough purpose that the spec of what it's supposed to do can be written down in formal language at all?

And actually... how much of your code has a precise enough purpose that the spec of what it's supposed to do can be written down in ENGLISH at all?

I don't think something like an "extremism filter" can ever be implemented in a bug-free way, because I don't think there's a precise enough definition of what "bug-free" would even mean.

The problem of people blaming bad outcomes on "the algorithm" is real, and organizations should take responsibility for misclassifications generated by code that they own and operate.

It's unhelpful to pretend like engineers and the organizations they work for have zero agency.

However, it's equally unhelpful to pretend like buggy behavior aligns with the intent of the engineer/organization.

Re: Facebook shuts down the Socialist Workers Party in Britain

#34

Post by aaomidi »

king_magic wrote: post #27

Honestly, I'd be happy to see all political groups - left or right - expunged from Facebook. Politics and social media clearly do not mix, as this year has demonstrated all too brutally well.

What a stance.

Maybe if you advocated for 'no politics on facebook', it would sound better.

Social media has given voice to marginalized groups, and people seemingly fear that voice. It's something to take a look at, rather than sweep it under the rug with bans.

Re: Facebook shuts down the Socialist Workers Party in Britain

#35

Post by AurelioB »

RobLach wrote: post #28
threeseed wrote: post #11

There was also a historical re-enactment page removed in December because they had militia in their title [1] Looks to just be an over-eager moderation engine. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-dorset-55215949

It’s always some external thing: “the algorithm”, as if that doesn’t just mean “the way we programmed it”. Computing systems are do not act on their own. That the system did this was because it was allowed to, or more accurately, told to.

Sure, makers should always be responsible & accountable for how a system behaves, but this seems like a textbook Hanlon's razor example

Re: Facebook shuts down the Socialist Workers Party in Britain

#36

Post by drcross »

chroem- wrote: post #26
mhh__ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also mainly motivated by money, which allows us to make at least educated guesses as to what happened in matters like these

That's irrelevant, because a private company can't be compelled to support someone else's speech against their will. If you don't like it, then take political action. Edit: For those unaware, this is the devil's advocate take. HN has been remarkably pro-corporate censorship lately, and only a matter of weeks later its coming back to bite pro-censorship advocates.

Well, in a capitalistic society with government oversight, you can expect the strong arm of government to lay the ban hammer on them. Participate in our society and be governed by the rules of our nation. As a capitalist fanboy I cant wait for the sanctioning to happen.

Re: Facebook shuts down the Socialist Workers Party in Britain

#37

Post by delecti »

king_magic wrote: post #27

Honestly, I'd be happy to see all political groups - left or right - expunged from Facebook. Politics and social media clearly do not mix, as this year has demonstrated all too brutally well.

Anywhere people are, there is also politics. An argument could be made for getting rid of social media entirely, but as long as people are using social media, politics follow.

Re: Facebook shuts down the Socialist Workers Party in Britain

#38

Post by HarryHirsch »

AurelioB wrote: post #35
RobLach wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s always some external thing: “the algorithm”, as if that doesn’t just mean “the way we programmed it”. Computing systems are do not act on their own. That the system did this was because it was allowed to, or more accurately, told to.

Sure, makers should always be responsible & accountable for how a system behaves, but this seems like a textbook Hanlon's razor example

People generally misunderstand Hanlon's Razor. It's immaterial if someone is evil or just stupid, the only thing that matters is that they should not be making decisions about other people.

(Charles Williams' All Hallows' Eve is an extended meditation about just that.)

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