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DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

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Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#291

Post by pelliphant »

aww_dang wrote: post #288
pelliphant wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your answer, but I still consider it "defending". Yes, the atmosphere we find ourselves in is horrible. But I would argue that the "post-truth" strategy used by trump & friends is the main reason for this. When it is so common to be intelectually dishonest, those disclaimers are needed, and with how easy it is to misunderstand people on the internet, I think that those disclaimers are something positive,…

By example, you'll note that I haven't called the comparison to ISIS dishonest. I could go in that direction, but instead I'd call it inaccurate. I've no way of reading the mind of the poster, so instead of burdening them with my presumptions of dishonesty, I try (and sometimes fail) to engage with good faith. From this point it isn't hard to understand how high emotions seem to be running. It isn't uncommon for othe…

I'm not from america, and I really don't agree with the politics of either american party.

But as someone who values democracy, I have to be honest about there being a huge difference between the two american paries, especially since trump. (But arguably since nixon).

Sure, I agree that there are lots of emotions everywhere, and people are attacking trump & followers for both valid and invalid reasons, but using the invalid ones to smooth over the valid ones is in my mind (atleast) as bad as the irrational attacks.

To go back to an earlier post in this comment chain, this is the reason why I think that starting a post with "I dislike trump, but.." is a good thing, so that one can criticize the irrational attacks without smoothing over the rational ones.

Also, I don't think intelligence has much to do with this, but rather:

https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/how-cognitive-bias-can-ex...

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#292

Post by roenxi »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #237
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The paradox of tolerance applies here: You can't extend tolerance to those who advocate for intolerance without destroying tolerance in the process. I don't understand how this is a paradox. You can't extend tolerance to people who commit arson and murder, or e.g. refuse to hire black people because they're black. You can let people say whatever they want, because then you can refute their arguments and refuse to i…

Paradox of Tolerance is a hypocrisy. If you are shutting down someone's ability to communicate because you don't like what they are saying, you are not tolerant.

The paradox is a real thing. The subtle problem is the paradox is often invoked by people who believe 'tolerance' means accepting things that they either agree or have no quarrel with. A very weak form of tolerance.

I suspect actually tolerant people wouldn't be invoking the paradox.

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#293

Post by AnthonyMouse »

snoshy wrote: post #234
aegis4244 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being black is a protected class. Being an asshole is not.

Glad you called it for what it is. The fact is that LACNIC, AFRINIC, etc. are actually contractually bound to investigate allegations like these and to follow up on them, no matter where they come from. They're doing the job they are supposed to. To bring racial qualities into a contractual dispute, ouch GP.

It's actually an irrelevant point, because we're talking about entities in a foreign country where US law on what constitutes a protected class doesn't apply.

If a racist organization in South Africa started doing compliance checks on only black-owned businesses world-wide and providing the results to vendors, would you have companies everywhere discontinue doing business with black-owned businesses because they're "contractually bound to investigate allegations like these and to follow up on them, no matter where they come from"?

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#295

Post by aww_dang »

pelliphant wrote: post #291
aww_dang wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By example, you'll note that I haven't called the comparison to ISIS dishonest. I could go in that direction, but instead I'd call it inaccurate. I've no way of reading the mind of the poster, so instead of burdening them with my presumptions of dishonesty, I try (and sometimes fail) to engage with good faith. From this point it isn't hard to understand how high emotions seem to be running. It isn't uncommon for othe…

I'm not from america, and I really don't agree with the politics of either american party. But as someone who values democracy, I have to be honest about there being a huge difference between the two american paries, especially since trump. (But arguably since nixon). Sure, I agree that there are lots of emotions everywhere, and people are attacking trump & followers for both valid and invalid reasons, but using the…

My somewhat heterodox political views and the criticisms they inform would be tangential at best. I don't agree that I'm smoothing over anything here. That said, I don't think it would be any less rational for someone to support Trump than support Biden. Assuming that all Trump supporters are somehow more irrational than others, that we could filter posts for rationality based upon proximity to Trump is troublesome.

People don't have to be less intelligent to be victims of media manipulations. Carlin, the American comedian was being glib.

I'm something of a news junkie. I observe the drama in the same way others might watch a daytime serial. From this view, I have to admire the craftsmanship that goes into spinning and developing media narratives, the way they expertly play upon the heart-strings of the masses. Often times the viewers are all too willing to indulge their outrage. Putting aside the concept of intelligence entirely, the masses who have little time or curiosity to observe the news in-depth, are poorly matched against the master propagandists. They've had decades to hone their craft.

As you say, you're concerned about the status of democracy in the US. Yet here comes the new narrative of domestic terrorism, buoyed by the same fears expressed in this thread. The masses are outraged. The image of Trump as a Hitler-like figure has been burned into their minds by repeated invocations of Godwin's law. After repeating this ad nauseam, Biden now proclaims that Trump is like Goebbels,

“You say the lie long enough, keep repeating it, repeating it, repeating it, it becomes common knowledge”

Even I have been called a Nazi for challenging what I see as irrational. Posters here have insisted that I check my privilege in regards to race. All of this without knowing my identity, race or experiences.

While I share your concern about civil society devolving, I see it as coming as a reaction to Trumpism. The intolerance is easy to see from where I stand, and I'm no fan of Trump. The comparison to ISIS is part and parcel of this intolerance. I find it somewhat ironic that you appeal to valuing democracy (I read that as civil society) while indulging the assumptions and fears I've outlined above.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/joe-biden-trump-jos... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brgZSzmAA3c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnA-ghhW_WI

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#296

Post by zimpenfish »

wolco5 wrote: post #212
zimpenfish wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it possible to bring fringe groups back into the fold of peaceful civil discourse It's not really "fringe" groups that are the issue here; it's "extreme" groups - no-one is calling for the flat earthers to be deplatformed, for example. > Does censorship, even if justified, fuel anger and distrust Probably but I'd guess only among the people who are already inclined that way already. > the population must always…

I believe deplatforming of flat earthers is already happening. Anyone who holds that position is not allowed on television and not allowed to run national tv ads and wouldn't be allowed to teach.

Here's Mark Sargent (King of Flat Earth) on reasonably high profile UK TV show less than a year ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wClJlarfyhE

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#297

Post by hluska »

andrewflnr wrote: post #153
wtallis wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. This doesn't seem to have to potential to go as badly wrong as a lot of other high-profile examples of selective enforcement. The fact that events can play out this way and seem exceptional (ie. happening only due to political motive) pretty much implies that IPv4 addresses are not really scarce yet and remain cheap enough that hardly anyone bothers to root out this kind of misbehavior. Which also means it shou…

The potential is only lower until people figure out that looking for irregularities in people's IP address allocation is a great way to deplatform people you don't like. I'd say that grace period is just about over.

I’m not trying to be argumentative but I don’t really see this as a net loss. In fact, I think it’s a positive for everyone. Fraudulently obtained IPs are bad for the overall health of the internet. It’s also bad for engineers - I don’t see how or even why you would want to build a resilient, high availability application on a fraudulently obtained IP. If anything, this will encourage clients to ask questions when they’re negotiating cloud hosting services and hell, we might even see contracts evolve to provide better protections for cloud users.

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#298

Post by hedora »

dragonwriter wrote: post #172
hedora wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with antifa (the “anti fascists”) is that their techniques are indistinguishable from fascism: If you say one thing out of line publicly, they hound you for the rest of your life. Like deplatforming, the goal is to deprive people of their right to speech. That’s fundamentally anti-democracy. Its sad that Antifa became the thing they hate; if the big internet providers follow suit, it’ll be a disaster.

> The thing with antifa (the “anti fascists”) is that their techniques are indistinguishable from fascism: If you say one thing out of line publicly, they hound you for the rest of your life. I see no evidence of that being true in any substantive way. I’d be surprised if there aren't some people somewhere who fit that description and identify with the antifascist movement, which is a big, diverse, decentralized move…

Here’s a description of the history of Antifa from the Anti-Defamation League. Note that Antifa is an specific group of self-identifying people, not just everyone that’s against fascism. They have a flag. They’ve been around since the 80’s. Some are violent, some just harass.

This is according to the anti-defamation league. The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) has also condemned Antifa in the past:

https://www.adl.org/antifa

The people you are describing probably are more closely aligned, ideologically with SPLC and ADL (unless they spend their evenings doxing neo-nazis, and shopping for equipment for their next violent counterprotest).

I have been donating to and referring people to non-violent anti-fascist groups for years. That’s very different than supporting militant extremists.

(Trump designated Antifa a terrorist organization, and I refuse to use that word to describe them.)

> No, it’s to get other people to exercise their right to free speech to not amplify harmful voices.

So, compelling speech is better than silencing people? Where will it end? Surely the criteria isn’t Republican vs. Democrat. Lets go with “supports violence”

Violent far left militants definitely exist, and are “harmful”. Shall we silence them? The ADL and SPLC condemn them, but are also clearly sympathetic. Shall we silence them too?

If not, perhaps we should stop them from supporting harmful protests. Antifa could use this map to physically attack lawful groups on the right:

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

Perhaps it should be taken down, at least? I donated money to help create the map. Should I be put on a list and prevented from getting a job?

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#299

Post by pelliphant »

aww_dang wrote: post #295
pelliphant wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not from america, and I really don't agree with the politics of either american party. But as someone who values democracy, I have to be honest about there being a huge difference between the two american paries, especially since trump. (But arguably since nixon). Sure, I agree that there are lots of emotions everywhere, and people are attacking trump & followers for both valid and invalid reasons, but using the…

My somewhat heterodox political views and the criticisms they inform would be tangential at best. I don't agree that I'm smoothing over anything here. That said, I don't think it would be any less rational for someone to support Trump than support Biden. Assuming that all Trump supporters are somehow more irrational than others, that we could filter posts for rationality based upon proximity to Trump is troublesome.…

supporting trump is only less rational if one values democracy.

I know that you are never ever supposed to compare someone with nazis, and if you do, you automatically lose. But isn't there a point where someone can act like a nazi to the degree that it becomes dishonest to not call them a nazi?

When trump repeatedly lies about the election being stolen, is it really that far-fetched to make that comparison?

I can fully understand that you dislike that people on the internet compare trump supporters to isis supporters, but using that to make the both sides are the same argument is really farfetched.

America has some serious problems, and it's democracy is really flawed, but it is still a democracy. If you want to mend the country you can't have half the country living in an alternate reality. Truth isn't something you can compromize away just to avoid being "partisan".

Since you used the words watch and viewers in relation to news, I can recomend:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#300

Post by klyrs »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #256
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't like the government, you make your own, no? How is it a crime? Because the Insurrection Act of 1807 [1] says it is. Less bluntly, the point of democracy is to give people peaceful means by which to affect their government. Storming the Capitol is not a peaceful mean. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act_of_1807

The problem is that, in their heads, they were denied those peaceful means, so they think they're justified in resorting to violence as a last resort. Their premise might be completely ridiculous, but the logic that follows is sound. Then again, that line of thinking means the blame shifts from those doing the assaulting to those fabricating the accusations that justify it, which happens to be mostly users of precise…

If you get defrauded, blackmailed, whathaveyou, into committing a crime, it's still on your head. Yes, the fraudster bears some responsibility, but it's not like the folks who stormed the capitol had guns to their heads. They knowingly, willfully, deliberately, with pre-planning, broke the damned law.

Ironic how the folks involved are all "law and order" when it comes to most matters of policing but now that they're facing charges of sedition it's all "wait is it actually a crime if I believe that my righteous cause justifies violence?"

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