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DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

krebsonsecurity.com

201–210 of 327 posts

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People dont like to think they are being tricked, and will actively reject truth if it contradicts what they already believe. Doing something like this can be great, but it takes time and effort, meanwhile acts of terrorism are being committed now. Most qanoners dont really believe it, and if separated from their echo chambers, will deradicalize themselves

> People dont like to think they are being tricked, and will actively reject truth if it contradicts what they already believe. I never liked that study because people always read it like that. When people receive new information, they try to make it consistent with what they already believe by making the smallest possible change to the existing belief system to make them consistent. That could be as simple as just n…

Thats assuming they engage with the logic at all, which is an assumption you cant make

> "Acts of terrorism" aren't speech so as soon as they go there they go to jail.

preventing terrorism is generally considered better than just arresting people after it happened

> But that's why we need free speech, right? To avoid echo chambers.

Unless you are suggesting we ban all moderation, no echo chambers form due to selecting information sources you only agree with and information sources pandering

> Even if private censorship is allowed, that doesn't make it a good idea if it causes people to leave for some Voat-like cesspool where they won't encounter ordinary people anymore.

censorship at least gets rid of the non true believers, the reason stuff like qanon spread so quickly is because they used sites like facebook and twitter and didnt stay in cesspools like 8chan, we cant get everyone but most is better than none

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#202
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But we were talking about tolerance. Tolerance for incitement to violence? I don't personally support tolerance of that, which is my right, and what I personally feel is better to avoid the spread of toxic cultures like found on Parler. Tolerance of diverse and non violence-provoking political opinions, including those I disagree with? That is something I totally support. Parler clearly does tolerate incitement to…

> Tolerance for incitement to violence? That's the thing which is illegal because it isn't speech. It isn't information, it's action. See above. > Parler clearly does, which is their right. No, they don't. It violates their policy and they removed all that was reported to them.

> That's the thing which is illegal because it isn't speech. It isn't information, it's action. See above.

It's a distinction without a difference. I don't want to host violence provoking content. I don't think others should either. You think they should, and you have your reasons. Everyone (and every organization) can make up their own minds.

Clearly, we disagree about which approach is better for society, and happily we do so cordially, which is just the sort of conversation we need more of.

> No, they don't. It violates their policy and they removed all that was reported to them.

That's false, and that it is false was upheld by the Federal judge today. Quoting https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-parler-violent-content-w...

"This case is not about suppressing speech or stifling viewpoints," Amazon's lawyers stated in a court filing. "Instead, this case is about Parler's demonstrated unwillingness and inability to remove from the servers of Amazon Web Services ('AWS') content that threatens the public safety, such as by inciting and planning the rape, torture and assassination of named public officials and private citizens."

"Parler's refusal to moderate content resulted in a "steady increase" in violent content on the network, breaching Amazon's terms of service, AWS contended.""

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#203

> The pending disruption for DDoS-Guard and Parler comes compliments of Ron Guilmette, a researcher who has made it something of a personal mission to de-platform conspiracy theorist and far-right groups. While this may solve immediate problems (such as the planning of unlawful or otherwise socially harmful events), we should consider the long-term impacts of de-platforming. Does censorship, even if justified, fuel a…

[deleted]

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anyone we label violent extremists should be completely and utterly deplatformed They've labeled themselves, though, by espousing violent extremist views.

I agree, they must be punished for their violent extremist seditionist views. They are a threat to our society. It’s called the “paradox of tolerance” the intolerant do not deserve rights because they have labeled themselves as intolerant.

You should go actually read what Popper said about the paradox of intolerance, instead of projecting your own interpretation onto it based upon your assumptions.

Edit: here, I'll do it for you:

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."

Put more succinctly: one ought to reserve the right to not tolerate the intolerant without limit, but we should always err to engage with them on the level of rational argument. Once they claim that rational argument is no longer the field on which they want to argue, and violence is, the right we reserve is to counter with our own intolerance of that, through violence if necessary, even though that is contrary to our principles of never being intolerant (hence the paradox.)

So no, it doesn't mean you shouldn't tolerate intolerance. On the contrary, it means you should tolerate it as much as humanly possible, but not limitlessly. It's basically the inverse of what you and others claim it says. The paradox is the fact that unlimited tolerance of the intolerant is paradoxical, not that any tolerance of the intolerant is. People who use this paradox to try to suppress speech that isn't directly connected to violence, specifically, are actually sitting on the "intolerant" side of this argument, funny enough.

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#205

To people who complain about deplatforming Parler, how would you feel about de-platforming a forum to recruit members for ISIS, or the Taliban? To me, Parler has equivalencies - AWS linked to calls for violence that were made on Parler - The platform was actively suppressing non-conservative viewpoints I would recommend looking at r/ParlerWatch on Reddit

I saw many calls for violence by the left on twitter and even worse on reddit. "Punch a nazi" applied to anyone with any hint of right leanings, "Smash starbucks", even calls for killing republican politicians. etc And there was definitely suppression of non-liberal viewpoints on many sites. I don't agree with most conservative views, but I am not so tribal and blind to irony that I think it's ok to apply different s…

The left.

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#206
This sounds like it is highlighting an issue with IPv4 that has always been there.

I think this is going to lead to a faster restructuring of internet routing, I was going to say “antifragility” but am I correct in that this term has also been co-opted by specifically far-right extremist groups who also think these attacks make them naturally select into more resilient forces

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#207

> The pending disruption for DDoS-Guard and Parler comes compliments of Ron Guilmette, a researcher who has made it something of a personal mission to de-platform conspiracy theorist and far-right groups. While this may solve immediate problems (such as the planning of unlawful or otherwise socially harmful events), we should consider the long-term impacts of de-platforming. Does censorship, even if justified, fuel a…

I don't think it is wise because whoever is in power will change fringe groups who need to be censored. Today it's the far right, during wwii it was anyone from Japan tomorrow it could be blm or women with tails. The one thing we know is it will change.

What's important is to being as open as possible and having open structures.

All of these are education problems not free speech problems. Speech is a signal not something to be repressed

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#208
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tolerance for incitement to violence? That's the thing which is illegal because it isn't speech. It isn't information, it's action. See above. > Parler clearly does, which is their right. No, they don't. It violates their policy and they removed all that was reported to them.

> That's the thing which is illegal because it isn't speech. It isn't information, it's action. See above. It's a distinction without a difference. I don't want to host violence provoking content. I don't think others should either. You think they should, and you have your reasons. Everyone (and every organization) can make up their own minds. Clearly, we disagree about which approach is better for society, and happi…

> It's a distinction without a difference. I don't want to host violence provoking content. I don't think others should either. You think they should, and you have your reasons.

Still no. Nobody wants to be hosting it. The question is what happens when perfect moderation is impossible, which it is.

> That's false, and that it is false was upheld by the Federal judge today.

You're quoting Amazon's lawyers, not the judge.

Wanting to do something hard and being less than 100% successful is not the same thing as not wanting or trying to do it.

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#209

To people who complain about deplatforming Parler, how would you feel about de-platforming a forum to recruit members for ISIS, or the Taliban? To me, Parler has equivalencies - AWS linked to calls for violence that were made on Parler - The platform was actively suppressing non-conservative viewpoints I would recommend looking at r/ParlerWatch on Reddit

+1. I must admit I find it a bit rich that people are raising free speech issues around this situation. I find myself wondering where these people were in 2014 when all the major social media platforms systematically removed ISIS accounts and content from their systems. I don't recall anyone lamenting that move and the chilling effects it had on free speech. In fact, iirc the response was quite the opposite.

Is it possible to use a more extreme generalization than ISIS?

On one hand you had ISIS posting beheading videos. On the other you had grandmas posting selfies in the rotunda.

Yeah, there are some nutters out there. But to claim that everyone caught up in the tech purges is somehow equivalent to ISIS seems a bit rich from my perspective. Even if you accept that some of these people are genuine domestic terrorists, reasonable people should be able to distinguish between rogue elements and ISIS, an organized terror state.

This is a bit like the claim that everyone who entered the Capitol Building was a terrorist. These are wide generalizations that only serve to confirm partisan biases. For me the use of these fallacious comparisons is illustrative of the problem at hand, toxic divisiveness.

Re: DDoS-Guard to forfeit internet space occupied by Parler

#210
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if private censorship is allowed, that doesn't make it a good idea if it causes people to leave for some Voat-like cesspool where they won't encounter ordinary people anymore. Absent access to "ordinary people" to recruit to violent causes, the inhabitants of such a "cesspool" will likely bore of their own conversation. If, as you state, any of them are engaged in illegal provocation to violence, they will be…

> Absent access to "ordinary people" to recruit to violent causes, the inhabitants of such a "cesspool" will likely bore of their own conversation. So then there is nothing at all to fear from Parler and all of the efforts to keep it offline are misguided? > If, as you state, any of them are engaged in illegal provocation to violence, they will be easier to find there, since they lack the shield generated by the nois…

"So then there is nothing at all to fear from Parler and all of the efforts to keep it offline are misguided?"

If you fear Parler being online, you are being tricked by the media.

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