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AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

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Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#271

Post by fastball »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #225
tinco wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you insinuating that's a small amount of data? You've got to be kidding.

It is, relative to the scale AWS ES is apparently built to support. > Amazon Elasticsearch Service lets you store up to 3 PB of data in a single cluster, enabling you to run large log analytics workloads via a single Kibana interface. https://aws.amazon.com/elasticsearch-service/

That's the absolute maximum case though, literally.

"You're not the DoD so of course you're not having issues".

It can't be more than a minuscule fraction of Amazon ES customers that are getting anywhere close to 3PB.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#272

Post by jeswin »

manigandham wrote: post #224
jeswin wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elastic Search launched more than a decade back, when the cloud was used in an entirely different manner. The team had no way to foresee the shift to the managed services model; of AWS taking popular Open Source products, repackaging it and undercutting the original authors. The decent thing to do (for all managed Open Source products that you didn't create yourself), would have been to offer a cut to the original te…

AWS didn't undercut anyone. They offered their customers exactly what they wanted. Many of these software vendors have delayed offering their own cloud-hosted versions, often years after AWS, even when these vendors should be better equipped at running them. Elastic is also infamous for data loss and still has consensus problems so maybe proper priorities are the real problem.

There is no meaningful way for an independent vendor to compete with a Cloud Provider offering the same service. It gets bundled in the initial sales pitch, promoted in their documentation and at events, and gets heavily discounted.

It simply becomes the default - and (if on AWS) nobody will even think of Elastic after a couple of years.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#273

Post by sg47 »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #162
sg47 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has not been contributing back to the open source projects when they offer a service based on it. E.g. https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/big-data/performance-updates-to... Amazon EMR release 5.24.0 includes several optimizations in Spark that improve query performance. Why have these optimizations not been contributed back to the community?

The announcement claims: > All changes to Elasticsearch were sent as upstream pull requests (#42066, #42658, #43284, #43839, #53643, #57271, #59563, #61400, #64513), and we then included the “oss” builds offered by Elastic in our distribution. This ensured that we were collaborating with the upstream developers and maintainers, and not creating a “fork” of the software. With links on the issue numbers. Why should we…

That's 9 PRs vs, as someone pointed out below, roughly 41000 commits in the project.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#274

Post by dawnerd »

dijit wrote: post #7

And I, for sure, will never use them. The AWS version of ES has been abysmal- it’s only saving grace is that it’s “in the ecosystem”- I was convinced by an AWS zealot on my team. Never again.

We used to use ES, but after multiple issues with the index getting corrupt for various reasons we decided to actually save money and use Algolia (before their price structure change - now it would be more expensive). Over the last year+ we've had no issues with search or indexing.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#275

Post by pastacacioepepe »

parasubvert wrote: post #132
geofft wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental "open source sustainability" problem is capitalism, or at least our incarnation of it, and everyone dances around it. You can't license your way out of this problem. You can't services-company your way out of this problem. The fundamental issue is that it is good for the world for skilled developers to spend all day writing software and giving it away, but they can make much more money writing softwar…

If you think capitalism causes problems with people getting paid for good work, I think you might be glossing over the historical failures of the alternatives relative to the ultimate goal of free / open software: user freedom. Even in a socialist system, how does it solve the problem of competition, free ridership, and economically non-rival/non-excludable goods like software source code? You still need to collect m…

Criticizing capitalism doesn't require being stalinists, so please stop with this cliche, it's old and extremely boring by now.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#276

Post by ksec »

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #222
fastball wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "it's legal but not necessarily moral" is a bit of a dodge. It's not just legal. It's explicitly allowed behavior according to the license that Elastic chose . This isn't like "yes it's the law but some laws aren't fair!". The only laws that are coming into play here are basically ones which say "you made your bed now lie in it". Elastic explicitly said (by choosing a license) "you can do X with our software!…

Fundamentally, these people do not believe in the core principles of capitalism, such as the notion that free trade makes both parties richer and that profit is not an evil but a necessary and healthy phenomenon. Thus because Amazon is a huge company, they view it making profit as fundamentally evil. They've also basically been brainwashed to think that the word "monopoly" means "any time a large company competes in…

>Thus because Amazon is a huge company, they view it making profit as fundamentally evil.

It is very unfortunate that this is the modern day main stream view of Open Source and Tech sector in general. Especially in Silicon Valley.

And it is funny because Tech is also the most profit making industry. And they are also earning Top End salary.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#277

Post by sg47 »

pjmlp wrote: post #147
sg47 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has not been contributing back to the open source projects when they offer a service based on it. E.g. https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/big-data/performance-updates-to... Amazon EMR release 5.24.0 includes several optimizations in Spark that improve query performance. Why have these optimizations not been contributed back to the community?

Because the community decided to use a license that allows it.

The community did that in good faith. What's the incentive for the community to contribute to the project if Vendor XYZ is going to offer the same project with more optimizations?

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#278

Post by reader_mode »

worldsayshi wrote: post #118
MisterPea wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the whole point of open source. Every contributor to something like Kafka or numpy is not expecting a cut from the thousands of companies that use it.

My two cents: Open source is a type of generosity. Generosity is good in the software world because the rules of the game benefits everybody the most when everybody are generous. I believe it's similar to prisoners dilemma but with even bigger benefits when we are all generous. However, it's also a tit-for-tat game. When others start to be greedy it makes some sense to be greedy yourself. Thus short circuiting the ga…

> Open source is a type of generosity.

Open source should be about optimisation. For example you have some infrastructure code (like LLVM, Linux kernel, etc.) that brings you little competitive advantage but you benefit from distributed maintenance - OSS is a perfect fit. And people using it but not contributing back is not really that big of a deal.

The incentives to upstream exist without licensing requirement - maintaining a fork which when the upstream knows nothing about what you're doing and could break you with every commit is not fun. You also lose on distributed review/support aspect. At the end of the day if someone finds a way to profit and not contribute back - how does that impact you ? Unless they are a direct competitor and you OSS something critical - in which case like people above said - you should rethink your business model.

Also OSS has a bunch of secondary benefits - recruiting, developer mindshare, etc.

I think viewing OSS as a generosity is not sustainable, and the incentives exist even without restrictive licensing.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#279

Post by syshum »

sgift wrote: post #232
syshum wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where the Free Software, ideology, and the "open Source" ideology really show its difference I view SSPL as a Copy Left style License for the SaaS age. They picked the wrong license in the first place with Apache, they should have used GPL, AGPL, or some other copy left anyway I generally oppose Apache, MIT and other non-copy left license exactly because it allows Amazon and other large companies is leech off…

> I generally oppose Apache, MIT and other non-copy left license exactly because it allows Amazon and other large companies is leech off the work for their own commercial offers while giving nothing back Like Elastic "leached" of Lucene? Elastics whole business model depends on Lucene being under the Apache license. If Lucene followed your suggestion (funny enough, Lucene used LGPL very early in its history) Elastic…

That is largely hypothetical and one does not know if Elastic would taken a different form is Lucene would have been under LGPL, nothing in LGPL would have prevented it, and maybe Elastic would have chosen LGPL themselves or even AGPL which I personally would have preferred over SSPL but I understand why they choose SSPL and 100% reject OSI's position that is a non-open license, it is a non free software license, but it is IMO an Open Source license

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#280

Post by parasubvert »

syshum wrote: post #262
parasubvert wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the Free Software foundation would strongly disagree. Copyleft licenses such as AGPL are open source licenses, because they preserve user freedom. The SSPL is not an open source license (and likely not even Copyleft) because it restricts user freedom that have usually been guaranteed by FLOSS. https://opensource.org/node/1099 Open source isn’t about guaranteeing a for-profit company a business model. “Leech…

Elastic marketing did not come up with describing AWS or any of the other big tech companies as leeches. That has been around for a very long time I am aware FSF would disagree with my position, AGPL is better than SSPL. As to OSI, I have losts of issue with OSI as an organization, and when they state "But Elastic’s relicensing is not evidence of any failure of the open source licensing model or a gap in open source…

“They are simply wrong”? That’s your argument?

I think you have zero interest in Free Software. You want “Free Software except in the ways I don’t like”.

AGPL was about ensuring user freedom by requiring server hosted source code modifications to be contributed back to the community.

SSPL isn’t about that. SSPL removes freedoms from using the software for no principled reason other than to allow a copyright holder to make more money by selling you a less restrictive proprietary license. It isn’t copyleft, it isn’t free, it isn’t open.

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