This is why I like GPL.
GPL wont help if there is CLA.
AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana
261–270 of 969 posts
Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is where the Free Software, ideology, and the "open Source" ideology really show its difference I view SSPL as a Copy Left style License for the SaaS age. They picked the wrong license in the first place with Apache, they should have used GPL, AGPL, or some other copy left anyway I generally oppose Apache, MIT and other non-copy left license exactly because it allows Amazon and other large companies is leech off…
I suspect the Free Software foundation would strongly disagree. Copyleft licenses such as AGPL are open source licenses, because they preserve user freedom. The SSPL is not an open source license (and likely not even Copyleft) because it restricts user freedom that have usually been guaranteed by FLOSS. https://opensource.org/node/1099 Open source isn’t about guaranteeing a for-profit company a business model. “Leech…
Elastic marketing did not come up with describing AWS or any of the other big tech companies as leeches. That has been around for a very long time
I am aware FSF would disagree with my position, AGPL is better than SSPL.
As to OSI, I have losts of issue with OSI as an organization, and when they state "But Elastic’s relicensing is not evidence of any failure of the open source licensing model or a gap in open source licenses. " they are simply wrong
There is a clear gap in open source licenses when it comes to dealing with SaaS, the fact they do no see this gap is very telling.
the Free Software community saw this problem and thus the AGPL was born, something like AGPL is needed for open source, but OSI refused to even acknowledge there is a problem let alone look for solutions to it
//And no Free Software is not the same as Open Source Software, they should not be linked as being the same
edit:
>>User freedom is the whole point.
Free Software is about user freedom
Open Source is about Developer Freedom, that has always been the big difference.
Apache, MIT, BSD etc are all licenses that allow devs to take code, use it in commerical products. That is why you see places like GitHub default to these non-copy left licenses.
Free Software is about copy left, GPL and the like. Because it gives USERS freedom
Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#263They want to fork because $$, fine. But they could at least stop pretending to be saint of OSS. They're bragging of raising 9 PRs of total 41000 in elastic repo. They are brave regardless. Elastic is not only database engine but whole ecosystem. Drivers, tooling, existing code, data pipelines, documentation and tutorials. Long terms keeping with elastic will be challenging to say at least.
what aws does is more oss than that what elastic does. elastic also did it because of $$. so neither of them wins.
Elastic say they want to make money of the product they've spent money developing and literally point at the company who basically announced they were using it in partnership with them and turns out isn't and isn't paying their fair share - AWS.
AWS say they want elasticsearch and kibana to be open source. What they really mean is they want to use elasticsearch without paying their fair share.
Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#264There behavior with Elasticsearh [0] seems similar to what they did to sellers with Amazon Choice and their other knockoffs [1]. > When Amazon announced their Open Distro for Elasticsearch fork, they used code that we believe was copied by a third party from our commercial code and provided it as part of the Open Distro project. We believe this further divided our community and drove additional confusion. > Recently,…
Elastic tried to use open source as marketing and then cripple the open source version by making things like access control and encryption only available in their non-open source version. That's of course completely within their rights, but you can't complain if AWS recognises these things as important to their customers and adds them to their version. It's nice of AWS to open source that, they wouldn't even have to do that according to the license.
Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#265I really wish AWS would rename their fork. Call it something else, and just call it compatible with Elasticsearch v(FORKED_VERSION). Their continued trying to associate it to ES is causing most of the issues, and after this situation I don't think the name is a valuable as it used to be. AWS have the resources to do a nice clean re-branding as well. I am actually quite surprised they haven't just hired a small team o…
> I really wish AWS would rename their fork. Call it something else, and just call it compatible with Elasticsearch v(FORKED_VERSION). Their continued trying to associate it to ES is causing most of the issues, and after this situation I don't think the name is a valuable as it used to be. AWS have the resources to do a nice clean re-branding as well.
Have you seen the names and logos for AWS services. They can't brand crap. Amazon can barely Brand anything? They got where they got via customer service not via branding. And now they're so big it doesn't matter what they do, it's got Amazon on it and we're all buying off of them anyways.
Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think GP meant that allowing for forks is the point of Open Source. Which I would argue is kind of a big point of Open Source -- the point isn't who's doing the forking or who's profiting -- but the point is that forks like this are intentionally allowed.
Sure. Don't know if I'd say that's the point , either, but it's definitely a lot closer to the essential spirit of the whole thing.
Yeah, that's fair. Maybe I should rephrase to say it's a point. I could see someone arguing that forking is just a component of the deeper philosophical attitude about how people can use and distribute and modify code in general.
Forking is the/a point in the sense that I can't think of a version of Open Source that is still Open Source but that doesn't allow forking -- that allowing for forking is a deliberate choice, not an accidental one.
Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#267AWS are the good guys here. Elastic built a popular product off the work of countless open source contributors. That's how they became a market leader in this product space. It's how open source works. The people who contributed to the product did so with no expectation of reward except that their efforts would remain open source. Elasticsearch got popular, and now Elastic wants to reap all the rewards and make money…
It's possible for there to be no good guys in a fight. They are both multi-billion dollar corporations looking out for their shareholders' interests. "Open source" is being thrown around by both sides as a marketing/goodwill tool, nothing more.
this is the correct take. AWS and Elastic are both acting out of self interest with varying levels of gains for the customer in each.
Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#268I would bet on AWS in this case as they will also likely have the support of anyone who wants to make a hosted service of those products. It will be interesting to see if eventually AWS starts making new APIs that diverge from the Elastic or if they chose to keep the product maintenance mode.
I understand that this is not what you meant, but AWS ES service has a different API than the one in the official Elastic documentation already - mainly that it’s a smaller subset of it. What may seem like a good decision for “aaS” product in general, is a real pain with ES specifically, because of how delicate it is for tuning.
Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#269AWS are the good guys here. Elastic built a popular product off the work of countless open source contributors. That's how they became a market leader in this product space. It's how open source works. The people who contributed to the product did so with no expectation of reward except that their efforts would remain open source. Elasticsearch got popular, and now Elastic wants to reap all the rewards and make money…
Classic "externalize costs" (have community build and evangelize for you) then "privatize gains" (now that we're here, we're changing the deal).
Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#270What I understand is that Elastic is upset AWS used the name for it's service promotion, stole propertiary code and alleged business partnership with Elastic. So Elastic felt loosing due to AWS using is assets, so changed the licence to compensate. Now AWS announces it cuts ties with Elastic by forking Elastic. So what AWS seems to announce is that it will continue to earn from Elastic , still will be using the name…
It's literally the obvious move that anyone who has been paying attention predicted. I predicted this myself days ago, and trust me it didn't require any genius.
Elastic is just fundamentally in the wrong here. (I'm not talking about the trademark dispute; that's irrelevant to the licensing changes, frankly)