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Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#251

Post by jjk166 »

klmadfejno wrote: post #177
karaterobot wrote: post #151

I disagree with the author's statement that the Fermi paradox is "pretentious" because it assumes we have cosmic significance. I think a better word for that is "presumptuous", but pedantry aside, I don't believe the Fermi paradox ever says anything about what aliens think of humans. It asks why there isn't more evidence of aliens anywhere we've ever looked, not about why aliens haven't come to ask us for our wisdom…

Hmm... If there was an earth 2, with the exact same properties, and a population of human lookalikes at the exact same level of tech as us, how far away would they need to be for us to have not detected them by now assuming we rolled a 10 for our perception check?

The Very Large Array (VLA) could pick up a broadcast from a geostationary communications satellite at a distance of 0.14 lightyears. The planned Square Kilometer Array (SKA) would be able to pick up the same signal within 500 lightyears. A radio telescope with detectors on opposite sides of the earth could pick such signals up from 2000 light years away. The nearest 2000 lightyears make up 0.16% of the milky way galaxy.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#252

Post by throwaway316943 »

baja_blast wrote: post #217
throwaway316943 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We might not be unique in those senses. If DNA and carbon based life is the standard then we are likely more similar to most life in the universe even if we have small differences in physiology or culture. We don’t share a direct biological origin but we are still made of the same stuff, probably originated under very similar conditions, etc. Unique forms of life likely develop under equally rare conditions in exotic…

I disagree that Aliens even if we share the exact same building blocks would look similar to us. For example even for planets that would be habitable for us would have minor differences in atmospheric pressure, gravity, the types of radiation their star produces would result in drastically different evolutionary paths. Also even if there was a clone of our solar system evolution would be random and the life would loo…

Small differences here means within the realm of what’s possible to build out of organic molecules. We’re talking about averaging life across the span of a galaxy. By unique and exotic I meant unlikely life forms like Boltzmann brains or sentient planets. We are probably one out of a million sentient, organic, sexually reproducing species. Once you’ve seen a few thousands of these you’re probably bored.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#253

Post by f6v »

burlesona wrote: post #220
drclau wrote: post #48

What bothers me quite a bit, both in more-or-less scientific conversations and in Science Fiction, is that we virtually always assume a human-like psychology for aliens, and we judge what they may want or not based on our thinking. Even when we think about potentially highly advanced aliens, we still assume they'll have a psychology similar to ours, and they'll just be more advanced technologically (ie. the aliens an…

I agree with you, but I think it's worth remembering/noting that this happens mostly because it's very difficult if not impossible to imagine what a sentient being with a psychology entirely unlike our own would be like. I think that most people (who think about such things) realize that extraterrestrials, if they exist, may well be more alien than we can even imagine. But it's fun to imagine things, so we try anyway…

Might be closer to “Solaris”, where we just won’t get it regardless how hard we try.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#254

Post by 6510 »

op03 wrote: post #64
hans1729 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ants are interesting because of the complex behavioral systems emerging from their comparatively simple biological systems, reminiscent of the game of life. Seeing the insane complexity of the human condition (look at the amount of scientific disciplines we come up with) and thinking "nay, this won't be interesting to a higher mind" feels awfully dismissive. sure, depending on the leap of sophistication we may appear…

Recently I had a bunch of snails appear out of nowhere all over the garden. And I spent a whole lot of time, trying to figure out what they were feeding on, cuz some were getting really big. The whole thing was quite fascinating...like how the hell were they producing these huge ass shells without tearing all the plants apart? So I call a good buddy over (PhD in bio something or the other) thinking he would be as fas…

Did you try talk with them? They are probably much more like us than we are like 100 billion year old civilizations. They might find us interesting to look at but the proverbial bird watcher doesn't try to sit in the nest.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#255

Post by soufron »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #239
hans1729 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ants are interesting because of the complex behavioral systems emerging from their comparatively simple biological systems, reminiscent of the game of life. Seeing the insane complexity of the human condition (look at the amount of scientific disciplines we come up with) and thinking "nay, this won't be interesting to a higher mind" feels awfully dismissive. sure, depending on the leap of sophistication we may appear…

I seriously doubt the human condition seems complex to a species that went through this stage a billion years ago. Or even a million years ago. If we ever invent a time machine I doubt we'd learn much from humans of 10,000 years ago. There would be some surprises for historians and archaeologists, but we certainly wouldn't treat them as cultural or technological equals. So the horizon of interest where an encounter w…

"If we ever invent a time machine I doubt we'd learn much from humans of 10,000 years ago. There would be some surprises for historians and archaeologists, but we certainly wouldn't treat them as cultural or technological equals."

That's only your opinion, and it's most probably wrong. These guys were capable of feats you can only dream of. And you could be very surprised at their level of sophistication, which might appear higher than us on many levels - if not on all levels.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#256

Post by drummer »

zionic wrote: post #114
duopixel wrote: post #52

> When weighing the risks involved in interactions with less-developed cultures such as ours, these advanced civilizations may choose to refrain from contact. I think establishing communication with a more advanced civilization would be deeply disrupting to our culture. We would ascribe their cultural practices to their advancement, and get a bunch of people doing "alien cargo culting". Imagine they were strict veget…

The aliens could also have morals we find repulsive, for example how would society react to aliens that said hitler was right etc etc?

Read the book "Hitler's Table Talk" by Trevor Roper.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#257

Post by bryananderson »

karteum wrote: post #138

There are also aspects that should be considered in my opinion 1°/ individual intelligence and technological innovation is not necessary an ultimate achivement that enables competitive advantage : human beings may be individually smart (compared to some other species) yet the collective intelligence of humanity is rather poor (which translates to the unability to solve collective problems such as sustainable manageme…

> human beings may be individually smart (compared to some other species) yet the collective intelligence of humanity is rather poor (which translates to the unability to solve collective problems such as sustainable management of our finite natural resources (e.g. oil) or of the consequences of our activity (e.g. biodiversity fall and climate change)).

This makes a big assumption: that our inability to solve these problems is rooted in a lack of intelligence (collectively or individually). I don't think that's the case at all. Solutions to these problems are widely known, and most educated people support them, at least in theory.

The problem isn't with our intelligence, it's with our incentives. Climate change is a tragedy of the commons (as are other environmental degradation issues, such as loss of biodiversity). Each of us would benefit if everyone cooperated (a nice environment for each of us), but each of us also benefits when we individually defect (cheaper energy for our various needs). As a result, we predictably end up with the suboptimal outcome of (almost-)everybody-defects.

What's the way out of the dilemma? It's clearly not a matter of getting smarter. I don't think it's an issue we can solve with moral pleading either: we've been trying that for decades. But what if we could change the game and remove the incentives to defect? * We could implement a carbon tax, incentivizing firms and consumers to use carbon-neural energy sources. * We could subsidize clean energy, incentivizing the same. * We could invest as much money as possible in reducing the cost of clean energy sources, eventually removing the need for ongoing tax/subsidy policies.

If non-polluting energy sources are cheaper, more widely available, and easier to use than polluting sources, no one would ever choose the latter. No heightened intelligence required.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#258

Post by itronitron »

grenoire wrote: post #20

Obligatory "They're Made out of Meat": https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/think... A brilliant sci-fi short story about not necessarily how we're uninteresting, but instead a bit too interesting.

Or maybe alien civilizations stopped visiting Earth after the dinosaurs got wiped out because their convenient big body small brain meat supply got wiped out. Would be interesting to find out if the same aliens seeded multiple systems with dinosaurs.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#259

Post by franknine »

7thaccount wrote: post #122
op03 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently I had a bunch of snails appear out of nowhere all over the garden. And I spent a whole lot of time, trying to figure out what they were feeding on, cuz some were getting really big. The whole thing was quite fascinating...like how the hell were they producing these huge ass shells without tearing all the plants apart? So I call a good buddy over (PhD in bio something or the other) thinking he would be as fas…

How did you know they were edible? I mean, I know people eat snails in certain parts, but how did you know these were safe?

Snails might host Angiostrongylus cantonensis (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angiostrongylus_cantonensis) which can kill people

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#260

Post by leokennis »

drclau wrote: post #48

What bothers me quite a bit, both in more-or-less scientific conversations and in Science Fiction, is that we virtually always assume a human-like psychology for aliens, and we judge what they may want or not based on our thinking. Even when we think about potentially highly advanced aliens, we still assume they'll have a psychology similar to ours, and they'll just be more advanced technologically (ie. the aliens an…

I always think, why should any alien resemble us in any way? Couldn’t an alien be a sentient cloud of gas that feeds on sulfur? A 20km sentient wide floating rock that doesn’t feed at all?

Sort of like the premise of “They’re made of meat”: https://web.archive.org/web/20190501130711/http://www.terryb...

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