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Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game

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Re: Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game

#51

Post by jwecker »

hugh3 wrote: post #3

Unfortunately does nothing to change my view that authors should probably keep away from their own reviews. If he'd had some brilliant new insight that would be one thing, but instead he just comes off as slightly more defensive than anyone who has sold tens of millions of books should. I guess it was 1999 when this was written, though, so the norms for online reviews had not yet been established.

Keep in mind also that Orson has written several books for writers and does a ton of workshops etc. For sci-fi he's a pretty prolific (and good imo) writing teacher. In his response he was specifically targeting literary concepts that he teaches and has written about while trying to dilute some of the ad-homonim attacks that were apparently exploding for the book at the time.

Re: Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game

#52

Post by araneae »

invalidOrTaken wrote: post #46
araneae wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would take issue with your view that Card isn't homophobic. From "The Hypocrites of Homosexuality" by Orson Scott Card: "Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message to those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitte…

"Homophobic" gets bandied about to the point of losing its meaning. "Unreasoning fear/antipathy towards homosexuals/homosexuality" is what the dictionary spat out, and I suspect Card would say 1) it's not "unreasoning" 2)"antipathy towards homosexuality" != "evil."

I'm pretty sure a reasonable person would consider it antipathy towards homosexuality.

Re: Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game

#53

Post by william42 »

grandalf wrote: post #13
pitdesi wrote: post #5

I love Ender's Game and all of OSC's other books, but it seems like he might be a terrible guy... more on that in this very interesting interview: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/02/03/card

The author misunderstands what Card is trying to say in response to her questions. Also, she evidently misunderstood Ender's Game quite a bit as well. Ender was suited to be a brilliant military commander precisely because he hated killing so much. A more bloodthirsty commander would have fallen for certain traps, committed certain errors of judgment that Ender was immune to. The nuance here is that Ender's strategic…

«Sure, card is a Mormon and appears somewhat socially conservative in his personal beliefs.»

Not just «somewhat», he believes that armed insurrection is justified as a response to gay marriage:

«Because when government is the enemy of marriage, then the people who are actually creating successful marriages have no choice but to change governments, by whatever means is made possible or necessary.»

see http://www.mormontimes.com/article/10233/State-job-is-not-to...

Re: Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game

#54

Post by tptacek »

pitdesi wrote: post #5

I love Ender's Game and all of OSC's other books, but it seems like he might be a terrible guy... more on that in this very interesting interview: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/02/03/card

This is a textbook terrible HN comment.

It sources what may be the single worst literary interview ever conducted (the author interviews herself snickering at her subject) to illuminate the worst-kept secret in all sci-fi fandom (that Orson Scott Card is a devout socially conservative Mormon), all in service of the conclusion that social conservatives are "terrible" people.

NOTHING GOOD CAN CONCEIVABLY COME OF THE ENSUING DISCUSSION.

I've read a bunch of your comments. You are way better than this one.

Please don't write stuff like this on HN.

Re: Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game

#55

Post by burgerbrain »

michaeldhopkins wrote: post #36
burgerbrain wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hateful and discriminatory seems like a decent line to me, but hey, its a judgement call. Decide for yourself.

You don't want this recursion to apply to you too. Saying a person who says someone is terrible is terrible puts you next in line. Fortunately for both of us I don't think you're terrible, just a little too excited to dislike someone.

You know what? I think I'm actually alright with someone thinking that I am terrible because I think that outspoken homophobes are terrible.

Yeah, I am pretty sure that doesn't concern me in the slightest.

Edit: fixed stupid corrective spelling thing...

Re: Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game

#56

Post by [deleted] »

burgerbrain wrote: post #55
michaeldhopkins wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't want this recursion to apply to you too. Saying a person who says someone is terrible is terrible puts you next in line. Fortunately for both of us I don't think you're terrible, just a little too excited to dislike someone.

You know what? I think I'm actually alright with someone thinking that I am terrible because I think that outspoken homophobes are terrible. Yeah, I am pretty sure that doesn't concern me in the slightest. Edit: fixed stupid corrective spelling thing...

[deleted]

Re: Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game

#57

Post by invalidOrTaken »

araneae wrote: post #52
invalidOrTaken wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Homophobic" gets bandied about to the point of losing its meaning. "Unreasoning fear/antipathy towards homosexuals/homosexuality" is what the dictionary spat out, and I suspect Card would say 1) it's not "unreasoning" 2)"antipathy towards homosexuality" != "evil."

I'm pretty sure a reasonable person would consider it antipathy towards homosexuality.

You're absolutely right. My comment probably implied that I didn't think Card is homophobic. Rather, I meant to get across that I don't think he minds.

Re: Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game

#58

Post by ab9 »

rubergly wrote: post #31
ab9 wrote: post #21

"No book, however good, can survive a hostile reading." Is that really true? The first Orwell book I read ( Homage to Catalonia ) was required for a history class -- a class that had previously assigned some truly awful literature. So I was pessimistic and I read it grudgingly at first. But halfway through the book, I realized I loved it.

I don't think the claim is that no book can survive any hostile reading, but that you can always approach a book with enough hostility to ruin it.

That's not how I interpret him. Here's the quotation with more context:

"Of course, those who approached Ender's Game skeptically or because they were 'forced' to read it can hardly imagine their response is valid for those who read it as volunteers or with belief: No book, however good, can survive a hostile reading."

Re: Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game

#59

Post by burgerbrain »

chc wrote: post #40
burgerbrain wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out 'A Memory of Earth'. (Or better yet, don't. It, enders game, and enders shadow all did it. Three strikes and you're out imho, certainly when one of them is the book the author is known for)

Three books out of thirty. And two of those books are the same story told from the perspective of different characters. And although that is part of the plot of those books, I don't see how you can say that's all there is to those characters. The pivotal moments in Ender's life are his acts of violence, not the adults' manipulation. And the other isn't really about naive children realizing adults are manipulative, ei…

This particular complaint of mine is purely technical. I think that, based on three of his three book that I have read, he demonstrates a significant lack of skill when it comes to character development. Trust me, if I was going to get into nontechnical complaints, I would undoubtably be downvoted simply for creating an unreasonably long post alone.

Anyway, my time is worth too much to be scientifically rigorous. I gave him the benefit of the doubt twice already, and am not willing to do it again. And to be honest, I would suggest that anyone who thinks I somehow "missed something" in his works is giving the man far to much credit.

Re: Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game

#60

Post by nl »

burgerbrain wrote: post #34
grandalf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it's reasonable. But do I judge Steve Jobs by what toppings he likes on his pizza or what kind of rap he listens to? No. I may agree or disagree with him, but his opinions on those matters have no bearing whatsoever on my primary relationship with him, which is as a purchaser of the hardware and software he designs. Similarly with Card, I am a reader of his fiction and so I don't care what color socks he wears,…

Preferred pizza toppings are in no way comparable to homophobic statements.

Perhaps a better comparison would be with Bobby Fischer.

Fischer idolized Hitler, denied the Holocaust, was antisemitic and wrote fanmail to Osama bin Laden[1].

But the same Bobby Fischer played beautiful chess that it's impossible not to admire.

I don't have a good philosophical framework to process how I can admire the beauty of Fischer's play (and Card's writing) and yet disagree incredibly strongly with their other views. None the less, it is possible.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer#Life_as_an_.C3.A9...

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