Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#41

Post by rbanffy » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #13

ballenf wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that we're one of (large number) of ant colonies and there's nothing particularly interesting about us vs. any other ant colony. Even if ETs study ants generally, there's nothing unique about us to give us a greater than 1/(large number) chance of being studied.

Last time a new mammal was discovered here it was international news. If an alien civilisation has trillions of trillions individuals, there must be quite a bit of them interested in any possible niche. This assumes that an interstellar species would be naturally curious.

There are, literally, millions of planets that can sustain life as we know it. Assuming a human-like mind, that alone is enough to reduce the interest in alien life as something mundane.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#42

Post by f430 » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

It's accepted in some scientific circles that ETs are transdimensional or have mastered the ability to project, materialize to cover the vast distances. It's impossible to become an intergalatic type 2 civilization using physics in the 3D.

Much like the fish in the koi pond can only move on a 2D plane, they wouldn't find us any more or less interesting. To us it looks like they are moving super fast (tic tac video via USN) or teleporting (common UFO sighting characteristic) but all they are doing is exploiting the dimensions beyond the 3D.

I follow the stoned ape theory in that fungi, one of the oldest compound on earth, specifically the psilocybe variety that has a unique chemical formulation that can't be found anywhere else on earth except recently similar chemistry was discovered on the Venus atmosphere (as proof of life) as a form of "self replication" software that increases visual acuity, formation of concepts and language in those that ingest it.

    Psilocybin is the only 4-phosphorylated indole on this planet.

I'm thinking they might check on the apes that consumed their biological software and see how far they progressed with the same amusement (?) or banality that one would express towards fish tank.

Perhaps they like to show off their technology like dangling a carrot in front of us. "You are getting close yet still far, keep going, and one day you can be just like us!"

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#43

Post by chrisseaton » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

imglorp wrote: post #21

The hard fact is there are no shortcuts to interstellar travel, barring new physics. Any trip will consume vast amounts of energy and it will take decades if not centuries or longer. Advanced tech may reduce the expense to your civilization but the fact won't change. While all life, ants or not, may be universally worthy of study, is it worth that much sacrifice? Also, if the ants talk, exchanging messages would make…

> The hard fact is there are no shortcuts to interstellar travel, barring new physics.

Do you know that early in the development of trains people were sure it would be physically impossible for humans to travel over 30 mph or so? They thought something would happen with the air pressure or something.

Our understanding of physics changes.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#44

Post by vidarh » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #19

> Fermi’s paradox is pretentious in that it assumes we humans have some sort of cosmic significance. No, it assumes that of all the incalculable advanced civilizations it hypothesizes to exist, at least some would be interested, not all, not the majority, not a significant number, but at least one in a million.

It doesn't even assume that. There are a whole lot of scenarios where we'd still assume we'd spot signs of aliens even if they're all totally disinterested in us.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#45

Post by guerrilla » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

PartiallyTyped wrote: post #31

hans1729 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ants are interesting because of the complex behavioral systems emerging from their comparatively simple biological systems, reminiscent of the game of life. Seeing the insane complexity of the human condition (look at the amount of scientific disciplines we come up with) and thinking "nay, this won't be interesting to a higher mind" feels awfully dismissive. sure, depending on the leap of sophistication we may appear…

To be fair to rocks, we also study them ...

Is astrogeology (as etymologically oxymoronic as that is) already a subject?

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#46

Post by DeusExMachina » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

nend wrote: post #2

>We may be a phenomenon as uninteresting to them as ants are to us; after all, when we’re walking down the sidewalk we rarely if ever examine every ant along our path. Not really the most convincing argument. There are professions that study ants. And I'm sure I'm not the only person on this forum that has a casual interest in observing ants. Pretty sure aliens would still be interested in us even if we were as primi…

And, after that, the article proceeds listing all the reasons why our sun, planet, and species might be very different from what you might find in other parts of the universe.

Which is actually what would make us more interesting, not less.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#47

Post by xwdv » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

nend wrote: post #2

>We may be a phenomenon as uninteresting to them as ants are to us; after all, when we’re walking down the sidewalk we rarely if ever examine every ant along our path. Not really the most convincing argument. There are professions that study ants. And I'm sure I'm not the only person on this forum that has a casual interest in observing ants. Pretty sure aliens would still be interested in us even if we were as primi…

Even if we study ants, that doesn’t mean aliens will be able to secure enough funding to launch an expedition across the gulf of space to study humans up close. Telescopes and radio waves may be the most they could invest in.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#48

Post by drclau » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

What bothers me quite a bit, both in more-or-less scientific conversations and in Science Fiction, is that we virtually always assume a human-like psychology for aliens, and we judge what they may want or not based on our thinking. Even when we think about potentially highly advanced aliens, we still assume they'll have a psychology similar to ours, and they'll just be more advanced technologically (ie. the aliens and ants analogy).

Eventually, I did find some cases in Science Fiction, and one in particular stands out as far as I am concerned: the alien entity named Rorschach and the smaller entities named Scramblers, in Firefall, by Peter Watts. If you are a (Hard) SF fan, you must read this one.

Another case I would mention off the top of my head would be the Formics, in Scott Orson's Card "Ender's Game" and sequels, but I think the whole idea was left mostly unexplored.

If you have other examples, please do mention them!

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#49

Post by b112 » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

PartiallyTyped wrote: post #39

imglorp wrote: post #21

The hard fact is there are no shortcuts to interstellar travel, barring new physics. Any trip will consume vast amounts of energy and it will take decades if not centuries or longer. Advanced tech may reduce the expense to your civilization but the fact won't change. While all life, ants or not, may be universally worthy of study, is it worth that much sacrifice? Also, if the ants talk, exchanging messages would make…

There is a paper that suggests we could, in theory, direct the sun itself towards something while we continued to live as we normally do with little to no change in our lives until we arrived at our destination. This does not effectively cost as much, but it will take a lot of time. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00945...

Interesting. Wan-to did such things, a plasmatic being which lives ib a star, via author Fredrick Pohl. The World at the End of Time.

I wonder, did the author of the study read, then postulate?

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#50

Post by bluGill » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

cortic wrote: post #35

>The silence implied by Fermi's paradox (“Where is everybody?”) may mean that we are not the most attention-worthy cookies in the jar. I've always thought of Fermi's paradox as ultimately a math problem, assuming a conservative amount of time between a civilization in one star system colonizing a neighboring star system, over billions of years every star system in the galaxy should be colonized by now. The fact that…

I just assume that space is filled with enough junk that you cannot actually get between stars without getting hit by random chance and destroyed.