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I tried creating a web browser and Google blocked me (2019)

blog.samuelmaddock.com

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Re: I tried creating a web browser and Google blocked me (2019)

#101

Post by shuntress »

deckard1 wrote: post #94
shuntress wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web standards are designed for cooperation not competition.

This has never been true. We wouldn't have JavaScript if Netscape didn't go off and do their own thing. Netscape and Microsoft were locked in a fierce embrace-and-extend battle for the web. XMLHttpRequest wasn't even a standard when Gmail came out in 2004, and wasn't a standard until at least 2006. Web standards merely describe the current world of web browsers and attempt to retroactively take credit for it.

>Web standards merely describe the current world of web browsers and attempt to retroactively take credit for it.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here by "take credit" but, that aside, are you suggesting that it would have been easier for Netscape and Microsoft to cooperate (or for gmail to support both) without some standards?

Re: I tried creating a web browser and Google blocked me (2019)

#102

Post by judge2020 »

thethimble wrote: post #99
eivarv wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another, arguably legitimate differentiating feature: How up to date the embedded web engine is (and how quickly you would be able to merge upstream changes, update the framework, wait for "browsers" implemented using the embedded framework to update their dependencies, etc.) That can be a pretty big deal when there's a fix for a high-impact vulnerability.

There's another security consideration here: whether you trust the webview not to peek at your https content. With a known browser, you get reasonable guarantees that TLS is being handled properly. With an unknown browser, these guarantees are gone. Considering the average person has no idea what https/TLS is, banning all unknown browsers as a defense against phishing seems completely reasonable.

HTTPS isn't even the largest concern - it's the browser being some malicious app asking to 'sign in to Google to load your profile' and stealing either the password or auth token.

Re: I tried creating a web browser and Google blocked me (2019)

#103

Post by benlivengood »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #55

I'm no an expert on DRM, but maybe someone here is. What would open source programs using DRM look like? My understanding is that the whole point of DRM is to prevent the software and the user from having arbitrary control over the data, which is fundamentally opposite of open source. Say that Google desperately wanted to support any reasonable method to accomplish allowing open source tools access to DRM-protected m…

DRM in hardware is about the only other possibility. Make the GPU do the DRM internally. This is actually relatively feasible since most DRM'd video content has hardware acceleration support and GPUs already support HDCP.

Full DRM in hardware would require a much larger coordination across manufacturers than any DRM to date (HDCP), and with AACS's key distribution problems greatly magnified. Specifically, preventing any software fallback would be required to avoid AACS's player key leaks.

Re: I tried creating a web browser and Google blocked me (2019)

#104

Post by CobrastanJorji »

teclordphrack2 wrote: post #93
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #55

I'm no an expert on DRM, but maybe someone here is. What would open source programs using DRM look like? My understanding is that the whole point of DRM is to prevent the software and the user from having arbitrary control over the data, which is fundamentally opposite of open source. Say that Google desperately wanted to support any reasonable method to accomplish allowing open source tools access to DRM-protected m…

DRM is just encryption. It being open source and everyone seeing what math is used is only going to make it stronger.

Sure, and maybe this is my lack of understanding speaking, but if you're free to edit the source, recompile, and then use the DRM software, why couldn't you just edit the source to save the video?

Re: I tried creating a web browser and Google blocked me (2019)

#105

Post by guyzero »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #97

Am I wrong, but is this more evidence of monopoly power by Google?

It's not that.

WideVine and PlayReady and FairPlay don't exist because tech companies want them, they exist because movie studios want them - or to be more precise, they demand them.

Chrome plays non-DRM video just fine. No studio in the USA will make their films available on a non-DRM encumbered service.

Re: I tried creating a web browser and Google blocked me (2019)

#106

Post by zucker42 »

speedgoose wrote: post #78
smaddock wrote: post #39

Blog post author here. Since this post, there's now an option available for DRM-enabled Electron. However, it's only available through a single vendor, castLabs [0]. This is a closed source, downstream effort which means no modifications can be made to Electron itself. All changes must make it upstream to show up in this fork. When asked whether they would eventually merge it upstream, they didn't provide a clear ans…

Did you consider to not get a license? You could perhaps download and execute Widevine pretending to be Firefox or Chrome. Is there advanced spying software in Widevine preventing to do that?

Potentially, there's a 5 year jail sentence for doing that[1].

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1204

Re: I tried creating a web browser and Google blocked me (2019)

#107

Post by jonas21 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #60

Isn't this just how DRM works? It's precisely why so many were concerned about EME being adopted into web standards, and why so many are passionate about DRM-Free media. DRM is designed to put restrictions on where, when, and how media is played, including what software it's used with. This doesn't invalidate any of the author's points, and they're right to be upset. But the problem isn't Chrome per se, it's DRM-encu…

Yes, perhaps the lesson here is that one should do some basic investigation on whether an approach has any fatal flaws before spending 2 years working on it.

Re: I tried creating a web browser and Google blocked me (2019)

#108

Post by Thaxll »

"I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me"

Title is very missleading, your web browser works and google does not block you, it's all about DRM.

"For the last 2 years I’ve been working on a web browser that now cannot be completed because Google, the creators of the open source browser Chrome, won’t allow DRM in an open source project."

This is crap, you should probably have known that before starting the project? As a dev it should be some common sense that you can't just playback 4k video from Netflix with a built-in Browser.

Re: I tried creating a web browser and Google blocked me (2019)

#109

Post by Tepix »

Thaxll wrote: post #108

"I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me" Title is very missleading, your web browser works and google does not block you, it's all about DRM. "For the last 2 years I’ve been working on a web browser that now cannot be completed because Google, the creators of the open source browser Chrome, won’t allow DRM in an open source project." This is crap, you should probably have known that before starting the…

DRM that Google controls

Re: I tried creating a web browser and Google blocked me (2019)

#110

Post by smt1 »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #47
eivarv wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more precise wording might be "... Google also blocks anything that's implemented in an embedded framework (e.g. CEF, webviews) and does not use browser-based OAuth authentication."

The problem is a web browser is arguably something which has a webview in it. The difference Google considers between "a browser" and "an app embedding a webview" is whether that app is specifically Chrome, Firefox, Edge, Safari, or IE.

I'm guessing the DRM has in effect has to be protected from the Russian and Chinese, both of who use forks of the open part of Chromium. Even servo doesn't have support for Wildvine, unlike gecko.
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