Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet • Hacker News Board

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#241

Post by La1n » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #228

ncann wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very obvious anti-China sentiment on Reddit, where you barely see any post with good news about China, where any news coming out of China is seen as CCP propaganda, and pro-China comments are downvoted and accused of being shills for the CCP. I'm disappointed to see the same trend on HN, even if it's not as bad.

You reap what you sow. When you employ propaganda on a massive scale nobody who knows about it is ever going to take your words seriously again, even if you are actually speaking the truth in that instance. The existance of the 50 Cent Army makes every positive comment about China dubiuos.

>The existance of the 50 Cent Army makes every positive comment about China dubiuos.

The US is known to do this too, but I see no one bring that up at literally every single US related topic.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#242

Post by FooBarWidget » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

byw wrote: post #229

sebmellen wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely! I sent you a message on Keybase.

Sorry to go on a tangent, but gotta say, I'm impressed by the level of civility in the thread, and on this topic in particular. It's a rare sight in these troubled times. I am kinda interested in the reading the discussion further though. But of course if you feel more comfortable taking it private I'd understand.

It's my goal to discuss civilly. But I'll have to find people who are willing to do that, rather than just wanting to push their views on others and denying that there are alternative legit points of view.

If you're interested, we could discuss privately too. Consider this an invitation to contact me.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#243

Post by sunstone » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #38

throwaway88098 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the best answer I've seen. HN however is not a place for unpopular (and true) insights. It'll be downvoted to oblivion.

I know. But I'm way past the point of being scared of that, or even caring. As a Chinese person I was scared of being lynched by the mob for speaking up (ironic isn't it, this is the so-called "free society" but apparently it only applies when you agree with the mob), but now I just think the truth must come out, and someone must push back against this insane, evidence-free anti-China hysteria. Notice that I'm not ev…

The issue with China is not China specific or CCP specific, the issue is Xi and how he's clearly playing directly from Putin's playbook to the detriment of world stability.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#244

Post by glenstein » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

ipiz0618 wrote: post #103

FooBarWidget wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

Given China's history to staging videos / forging evidence / faking suicides for oppositions [1][2], I'd say this is a valid concern. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai#Release_from_PSB_cu... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books

Thanks. I've been on HN for more than a decade and this thread is just mind-boggling to read. Whatever people think is indicated by the facts of Jack Ma's case, it should be reconciled with the China's established history of abductions and disappearances, the reality of which are not disputed.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#245

Post by bollu » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #155

baybal2 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. And it is bad. The country run by a freaking communist party, if somebody didn't notice. And we are not even mentioning gulag, and hookers. > In contrast to China's reputation here in the west, the govt actually DOES listen to criticism. Because it is afraid of it? > The key is to be constructive, and to criticize policy rat…

Look, if you don't believe me, at least believe in Kishore Mahbubani, ex-Singapore diplomat and ex-UN Security Council head. He's spoken extensively about this in his book "Has China Won?" and can corroborate what I said. In the past 40 years, the freedoms of Chinese people have exploded. People could not choose what to wear, where to work, what to eat, where to live. Now they can. Millions travel world-wide every ye…

> and all of them return home. Why would they do that if China is as bad as you say?

Because getting a Visa that lets you stay abroad is actually really hard

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#246

Post by FooBarWidget » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #230

hungryhobo wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i mean that's the point isn't it, in all the news about jack ma's disappearance, has any journalist tried to clarify the matter? NO, it's all speculation and journalists trying to create a narrative. So, jack ma has only disappeared in this magical world created by western media.

> has any journalist tried to clarify the matter? NO So, do you think no journalist in the world has tried to clarify the matter; or no journalist in the world is able to clarify the matter? > jack ma has only disappeared in this magical world created by western media ok, so what does the world of Eastern/Chinese media say?

Journalists could certainly do a much better job with the data already available. For example, there's the actual underlying financial issue: the way Ant Group handled money is very risky, but they want to be regulated as a tech company instead of as a financial institution. This has the potential to cause a huge financial bubble.

Even if there's some merit to the accusation that Jack Ma got into trouble for criticizing, I think the regulatory issue at least deserves some investigation, or explanation. But very few journalists chose to cover this; pretty much everybody went all-in on the "Jack Ma got into trouble" angle.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#247

Post by simonh » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #240

simonh wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's shocking how accurate his predictions were, and I think it's really important to understand that these weren't lucky guesses. They were the product of a deep and insightful analysis of Chinese culture and society that is still very much relevant today. The personalities have changed, but in many ways China is still China.

Do you have an example of something that you think was a very good prediction that has panned out?

He warned that their society is prone to endemic corruption, that merging the worst aspects of Chinese culture with Capitalism would be a very dangerous combination. He said that China could become an economic and military rival only exceeded by the united States over the next few centuries, so he was explicitly thinking long term. This was at a time when most Westerners thought of China as an archaic, irrelevant joke.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#248

Post by dmix » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

ConcreteGidget wrote: post #63

Does anyone have any book recommendations for non-chinese people to understand CCP power structures? I'm completely lost in all of this Jack Ma stuff.

Surprised no one has mentioned “Red Capitalism (2012)” which specifically covers the finance industry in China (pre-AliPay but post reform in the modern era) which gives a clear insight into the sort of banking system Ma tried to shake up and their big role in China’s rise.

https://www.amazon.com/Red-Capitalism-Financial-Foundation-E...

The author is an excellent China Watcher who works at an Australian think tank and basically covers this topic for a living.

His blog post on the matter is a good starting point, which was before the IPO was cancelled, and many before that were prescient.

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/many-trails-an...

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#249

Post by idownvoted » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

ConcreteGidget wrote: post #63

Does anyone have any book recommendations for non-chinese people to understand CCP power structures? I'm completely lost in all of this Jack Ma stuff.

„China in ten words“ by Yu Hua, of course banned in China

„The awakening of China“ - by Sun Yat Sen. Old but informative least but not last becauseit was the only book heralded by both Chinas (PRC and Taiwan) and even allowed during Mao‘s heydays of Terror (in which the official amount of allowed books was in the single digits, and most of those were authored by Mao).

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#250

Post by glenstein » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #73

zhdc1 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally stay out of speculation and fear mongering, but the fact that your comment has been repeatedly - and quickly - downvoted worries me. The CEO of a $600B global publicly traded company disappeared for several months. This does not explicitly mean that he was detained, but it should be a point of concern. Imagine the outcry if this happened to an American CEO with controversial political opinions (there are…

> I generally stay out of speculation and fear mongering, but the fact that your comment has been repeatedly - and quickly - downvoted worries me. You should take a look at my post history, then. Any time I express concern over China I'm voted into oblivion. It's the same with Apple, but that I expect. Recently I think someone has taken to downvoting entirely innocuous posts I make from my post history. Sometimes I'l…

>Sometimes I'll post replies to day-old threads and find myself downvoted within half an hour.

This has also been happening on Reddit threads where people post comments critical of China. Top level comments are critical, but then far down the thread, low visibility comments suddenly swing aggressively upward or downward by dozens of votes if they relate to China.