Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet • Hacker News Board

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#151

Post by dang » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 7:58 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #97

FooBarWidget wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

I think that from their several actions that China/CCP is not the best example of democracy and criticism acceptance So no I don't buy the retoric of misunderstood China > I am from China and I have family in China. So you're not behind the great firewall and don't need to contend with official internet censorship.

Please don't post flamewar comments to HN. We've had to ask you this many times. Nationalistic flamewar is particularly unwelcome here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#152

Post by hungryhobo » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 7:58 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #14

sebmellen wrote: post #5

> In the 50-second video, Ma, dressed in a navy pullover, spoke directly to the camera from a room with grey marble walls and a striped carpet. It was not clear from the video or the Tianmu News article where he was speaking from. Uh, resurfacing from a fancy prison cell, perhaps? Can anyone find the video? EDIT: Here's the raw video: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196... . If you watch his…

This regime is no joke. We need to offer Hong Kong and Chinese citizens a fast and easy path to citizenship in the West. If we do not brain drain China, rehabilitate our manufacturing capability, and prevent the CCP's rise to global dominance, we'll all have our liberties threatened. It could start with an offer to Jack Ma. Offer for him to move to SF or Miami. Watch for the "ha, ha, no thanks", but see the impact it…

that helps the chinese people how? i mean i see the benefit for americans, but how do you propose to get people in china to support this? if this view is commonly held by westerners then doesn't this just give the CCP more legitimacy?

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#153

Post by ex3ndr » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 7:58 AM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #28

sebmellen wrote: post #5

> In the 50-second video, Ma, dressed in a navy pullover, spoke directly to the camera from a room with grey marble walls and a striped carpet. It was not clear from the video or the Tianmu News article where he was speaking from. Uh, resurfacing from a fancy prison cell, perhaps? Can anyone find the video? EDIT: Here's the raw video: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196... . If you watch his…

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

This is exactly what iranian people told me: they are democratic country. AND in the very same sentence they concluded that they can ban messaging apps if government want to.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#154

Post by baybal2 » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 7:58 AM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #120

echelon wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How much more mental gymnastics do we need? > I am from China and I have family in China. Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? Please realize also that many in the West (myself included) are freaking out about China and are trying to counter its rise. This is a narrative that fits into their world view. I'm more worried about CCP fascism and hypersonic nukes than I am about climate change. I'm worried…

There are a couple of paradigm shifts needed. In mainland China, people value outcome legitimacy rather than procedural legitimacy and freedom of speech. In other words: they care whether the government actually does a good job, rather than whether the procedure through which the government was selected is correct, or whether they could criticize Xi. How would the government get feedback then if people aren't allowed…

> The government monitors social media as well for grievances.

I personally know people whose parents were stupid enough to go for such "anonymous grievance boxes" just to get a knock on the door from district committee enforcers the next day.

You don't seem to know anything about modern China if you don't even know that.

> After all, 2 generations ago the Chinese were dirt-poor. When I was born, food rationing still existed!

> mainland Chinese value unity, face, action over talk and freedom from poverty

If Beijing ever cared about freedom from poverty, China wouldn't be so poor as a result of its actions.

And I am not talking about Mao era here, but very much modern day.

> China is not interested in exporting its governance model. It has never done that.

> It's not in their interest to change others' governance model.

Then, why it is doing it?

Beijing sent armed Maoists to Naxalite insurgency, Indonesian Maoist insurgency, Malaysian Maoist insurgency, Singapore coup attempt, North Korea, Nepal, Burma, Laos, Campuchia, Sri Lanka, and ~10 African countries?

A solid record by any measure.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#155

Post by FooBarWidget » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 7:59 AM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #107

FooBarWidget wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

> rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. And it is bad. The country run by a freaking communist party, if somebody didn't notice. And we are not even mentioning gulag, and hookers. > In contrast to China's reputation here in the west, the govt actually DOES listen to criticism. Because it is afraid of it? > The key is to be constructive, and to criticize policy rat…

Look, if you don't believe me, at least believe in Kishore Mahbubani, ex-Singapore diplomat and ex-UN Security Council head. He's spoken extensively about this in his book "Has China Won?" and can corroborate what I said.

In the past 40 years, the freedoms of Chinese people have exploded. People could not choose what to wear, where to work, what to eat, where to live. Now they can. Millions travel world-wide every year, and all of them return home. Why would they do that if China is as bad as you say?

As for "a revolution against Beijing": prof. Mahbubani says that there are actually hundreds of protests in China every year. But those people aren't protesting against the central government: they're trying to get the central government's attention, to help them with their grievances. The central government is very popular. According to a poll by Harvard, who collected data over a 15 year period through anonymous in-person interviews, support for the central government has increased in this 15 year period. In 2016 (last year of the study), it was at an all-time high: 96% of respondents said they're satisfied or very satisfied with the central government.

What makes you believe you are more right than prof. Mahbubani and Harvard?

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#156

Post by La1n » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 8:00 AM UTC

ex3ndr wrote: post #153

FooBarWidget wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

This is exactly what iranian people told me: they are democratic country. AND in the very same sentence they concluded that they can ban messaging apps if government want to.

Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#157

Post by FooBarWidget » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 8:01 AM UTC

murat124 wrote: post #75

FooBarWidget wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

You may love China but CCP is not China.

You think that if the KMT had won, that China would have been better off? Do you have any idea how corrupt the KMT was? The CCP won for a reason.

CCP is mainland China. According to a poll by Harvard, who collected data over a 15 year period through anonymous in-person interviews, support for the central government has increased in this 15 year period. In 2016 (last year of the study), it was at an all-time high: 96% of respondents said they're satisfied or very satisfied with the central government.

That doesn't mean I "love the CCP". But is there any other party out there who actually advances the interests of Chinese civilization?

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#158

Post by dagw » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 8:01 AM UTC

prox wrote: post #128

secretcombos wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deceiving the Sky: Inside Communist China's Drive for Global Supremacy (2019) by Bill Gertz is an excellent starting point: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50927537-deceiving-the-s...

I wonder why you’re being downvoted. Is it because it’s so accurate that it hurts or because it’s not?

Bill Gertz (the Author) is a very divisive figure in US politics, with a long history of anti China bias. His writings are much more polemic screeds and less balanced academic analysis. He sees the US-China situation very much as battle between good and evil (with the Democrats being complicit on the side of evil), has zero nuance and very little sourcing in his books. All of this makes his books rather controversial.

All that being said. None of this is evidence for his books actually being wrong.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#159

Post by dang » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 8:04 AM UTC

sebmellen wrote: post #150

dang wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate that you have deep personal connections to this issue, as do many other commenters, both on your side and the opposite side. What are we to do with that but try harder to respect each other?

You're entirely right. In the words of MLK: > Hate cannot drown out hate, only love can do that. Please don't get me wrong — I wasn't trying to excuse my wording; I was just trying to explain that I don't mean to create a flamewar or bitter argument. My comments are a genuine expression of my thinking, and I'm not trying to make HN a place for ideological battle. I suppose these discussions just naturally veer into t…

Sure, and I appreciate that. I think what makes this problem so hard is that we depart from that spirit without realizing that we've done so. This is why it feels like we're posting out of love and respect while the other party is being rude and is in denial, gaslighting, or worse. Meanwhile the other party feels exactly the same way. Each of us is casting our own shadow on the other.

That's unfortunately how human communication works, especially online, and it takes a conscious (and considerable) effort to learn to do otherwise. It's not easy! We're all working on it, including me. Unfortunately, when the topic is divisive and activating, the rapid-fire, low-information nature of internet comments causes threads like this to compound extremely quickly into an all-out war.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#160

Post by sebmellen » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 8:05 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #148

sebmellen wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect it seems all of your tweets center around defending the Chinese government. Why??? I mean, saying that: > Many people see the Chinese govt's deficiencies as a result of "evil". I don't really subscribe to that. I think it has more to do with "incompetence". Building a large organization, with the right culture, is hard . is kind of ridiculous. Would you say the same thing about the Soviets (with…

Please don't bring in someone's posts on other sites as ammunition in an argument here. I know it always feels relevant, but the general case of people behaving this way is very ugly indeed, and we're trying to avoid the online callout/shaming culture here. It's sufficient to reply to what someone has actually posted in this context. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=online%20shaming%20by%3Adang&s...

Should I remove the references? I'd be glad to if you think that's appropriate.