Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#571

Post by neartheplain » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:50 AM UTC

whoknew1122 wrote: post #303

_etyf wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far-right terrorism in the US has never really been taken seriously. No one took them seriously. That's not really true. Far-right terror was taken very seriously in 1995 after the Oklahoma City bombing. The FBI hired 500 agents specifically to focus on domestic terrorism [0], particularly the then-new militia movement. Virtually every state and federal law enforcement agency established a domestic terror unit. Throu…

I apologize for being imprecise. Far-right terrorism hasn't been taken seriously until a far-right terrorist actually commits violence. Then government is vigilant for a couple of years and goes back to ignoring them. Far-right terror was taken seriously after the OKC bombing. But the far-right terrorist threat had been steadily increasing for three years at that point. Ruby Ridge and the Waco Siege contributed to a…

In fact, the feds had besieged Ruby Ridge in the first place due to Randy Weaver's far-right connections. They wanted to flip him as an informant on the Aryan Nations [0], a white nationalist group with ties to deadly terror cells like The Order [1]. To this end, they threatened him with the weapons charge that led to the the siege at Ruby Ridge, and ultimately to the shooting deaths of Samuel and Vicky Weaver. So far-right terror was taken seriously pre-OKC, but afterwards it was taken very seriously.

The 2017 PBS documentary "Oklahoma City" was my intro to this subject matter [2]. Excellent film, gripping presentation.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#Development

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_(white_supremacist_g...

[2] https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/oklahoma-c...

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#572

Post by esyir » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:50 AM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #282

j_walter wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shutting down a judicial governing body through nightly attacks for month should also have consequences...but it didn't. I literally watched it happen for months on end with little repercussions by local law enforcement (because they were restricted by the mayor). What happens when you take over multiple city blocks for a few weeks and don't allow any government agencies to do their jobs? That should also have reprec…

It sounds like you are talking about the federal judiciary in Portland? Being specific helps readers understand how to address your comments.

Or the incident at the white House that had the secret service moving trump to a bunker for his safety. Note that left aligned media considered this a good thing.

Contrasting this to the reaction to capitol hill does not bode well to me.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#573

Post by monadic3 » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:55 AM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #477

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They took far right terrorism seriously in the 1870s. They more or less stamped out the (original) KKK while simultaneously giving the south the requisite autonomy to enact Jim Crow. Obviously Jim Crow doesn't square with our modern view but at the time the lack of some systemic way to keep the black people down was a serious grievance that a lot of people had. The government cracked down on the extremists who were s…

> he government never takes people's grievances seriously until there's a "real" threat of extremists getting off the porch I haven't noticed any gay-marriage terrorists on their porches, and yet here we are. Women-for-equal-pay have not been observed cleaning and oiling their rifles menacingly, and yet the law was mended in their favor. And I don't think Irish or Jewish terrorism was a problem in the US, but their p…

> I haven't noticed any gay-marriage terrorists on their porches

Ahh yes, democracy—the process where you beg 9 people to respect your rights.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#574

Post by abduhl » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:55 AM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #553

sojournerc wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread started with you saddened at folks downplaying the events at the Capitol. I'm much more concerned with the media being complicit in downplaying what we both agree is domestic terrorism elsewhere. I suppose that's a "what about", but I fear the current structures of power colluding to form narratives more than angry trumpers.

93% of the BLM protests were peaceful [1] despite protestors numbering in the millions, if not tens of millions - compared to the tens of thousands at the capitol. The most notable violence during the BLM protests was an incident where far right extremists, members of Bugaloo boys group involved in the capitol attack, used the protests as cover to murder cops [2]. To compare the two is disingenuous. [1] https://acled…

Sorry man, but the most notable violence during the BLM protests was the gangland style execution of two black teens after the "movement" had taken over six city blocks.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/shooting-at-... https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-rep... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8471219/One-man-dea...

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#575

Post by filoeleven » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:56 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #421

whoknew1122 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far-right terrorism in the US has never really been taken seriously. No one took them seriously. Until the Capitol was attacked. The Feds are starting to roll up high ranking militia members, so hopefully they learned their lesson this time.

The rush to call the storming of the capitol terrorism is really misplaced. By adopting words like "terrorism" you're paving the way for an overreaching response from lawmakers and law enforcement -- something that will likely end up being used against a cause you might support, like BLM. Firstly, nobody was terrorized. No, this wasn't "our 9/11." I doubt it'll even be a topic of conversation in a few years, just lik…

There is already a huge gulf between how BLM protests were treated and how the capitol protest was. There’s a photo from a BLM protest in DC where the Lincoln Memorial steps (not the capitol building, which is widely-stated misinformation) had lines of National Guard troops stationed on it.

Compare that with the tiny Capitol Police force guarding the Capitol building while one of the most important state functions was in progress, with much of the executive branch succession and the legislative branch in attendance. National Guard troops were denied both in advance and for a while during the ensuing riot, citing concerns about “the optics.”

Any meaningful discussion of protest response and overreach, potential or actual, has to account for that disparity.

As you said, some rioters were “planning terrible deeds,” which increasingly clearly means “kidnapping or executing congresspeople and the VP for not keeping DJT in power.” This raises the issue to the level of sedition (organized incitement to rebellion) and insurrection (actual acts of violence against the state or its officers).

Maybe “terrorism” doesn’t broadly apply here, and it’s better to refer to the capitol invaders as “insurrectionists.” Trump, the other government supporters of the protest, and any private backers should be labeled as “seditionists.” I am less likely to push for a “terrorism” label if I can be confident that the other two labels will be applied and prosecuted as such.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#576

Post by vinay_ys » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:57 AM UTC

EhhhhSql wrote: post #475

asdfk-12 wrote: post #438

Half of a billion in lobbying dollars well spent by FAANG[1] - business as usual continues for facebook despite their decreasing popularity and repeated scandal and failure, from Cambridge Analytica to Libra. Those in my immediate circle have mothballed or closed their accounts, although Instagram seems to have more holding power. 1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ajdellinger/2019/04/30/how-the-...

It's worth noting that quite a few politicians hold facebook stock, most notably Nancy Pelosi. I believe most of her current personal wealth is from facebook stock. My point is not to be skeptical of Pelosi from some partisan perspective; I have never voted Republican. I merely aim to cast doubt on whether anything will fundamentally change.

This should be a pretty easy to verify claim. Do you have any source for this?

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#577

Post by vsareto » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:58 AM UTC

whoknew1122 wrote: post #266

alwaysdoit wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's weird that the discussion has centered around censorship, rather than like... why didn't law enforcement shut this down sooner? Or at least properly prepare for it?

Far-right terrorism in the US has never really been taken seriously. No one took them seriously. Until the Capitol was attacked. The Feds are starting to roll up high ranking militia members, so hopefully they learned their lesson this time.

>so hopefully they learned their lesson this time

I might be cynical, but I think that will work just about as well as the first impeachment.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#578

Post by idrios » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:59 AM UTC

eganist wrote: post #454

nostromo wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you expand the definition of terrorism to such an absurd degree (anybody who may need grief counseling) you're diluting actual terrorism. The Pulse nightclub is what real terrorism looks like. And the Christchurch shootings. And 9/11. The storming of the capitol was not at all similar.

> If you expand the definition of terrorism to such an absurd degree (anybody who may need grief counseling) you're diluting actual terrorism. > The Pulse nightclub is what real terrorism looks like. And the Christchurch shootings. And 9/11. > The storming of the capitol was not at all similar. Interesting. What makes 9/11 a terror attack that doesn't similarly make the Capitol Insurrection one? Because they both lef…

I'd say intent to kill is what makes them terrorists. What makes this muddied is the varying degrees of intent from all the people who stormed the capital. Some saw it as a chance to kill people. Others just went to protest -- not really unreasonable since we've been having protests nonstop for like a year.

Calling both kinds of people terrorists feels sort of like calling the passengers of the 9/11 flights terrorists too

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#579

Post by secondcoming » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 2:03 AM UTC

King-Aaron wrote: post #458

nostromo wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying something wasn't terrorism doesn't mean it wasn't unlawful or stupid or terrible. It just means it wasn't terrorism.

The definition - 'the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims' - seems to fit the event we're discussing.

It's quite odd that that phrasing allows for lawful violence and intimidation.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#580

Post by esyir » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 2:05 AM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #380

dmix wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

‘Even the bad actors aren’t really that bad because they support a cause I see as valuable’ seems to be the primary excuse floating around on here. All political violence should be treated equally. I also think that all races/genders/etc should be treated equally but even that has become taboo in progressive circles. Which is probably using the same sort of mental gymnastics that justifies some violence but not vilif…

I also think that all races/genders/etc should be treated equally but even that has become taboo in progressive circles. Problem is, it's always been taboo in conservative circles as well. That is the great problem of our day. All these political ideologues espouse beliefs contrary to the good of large numbers of people in our society. They give speeches about how it's not "us" but the other side who are the bad guys…

I will say that these events have given me some respect for the right wing media. They at least were willing to call these riots and condemm them, which is more than I can say about the reaction to blm. From the left media.