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What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

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Re: What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

#21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's not the people that participated in an seditious attack on the capital and the most cherished democratic process, the democratic choosing of the US president that are the problem here? They built gallows outside the capital, they screamed "hang Mike Pence" because he didn't literally attempt to end American democracy for them. It's still "those other people who want to take our freedumbs away" that are the pr…

Exactly, that's how this works. They take all of our freedoms away while you cheer them on. You know, this isn't the first time it's happened. People aren't just pulling this out of thin air. There's a very long history of these things playing out that way, time after time. We are currently in an era, since 2001, where every time the government or corporations decide to do something to "protect" us, they end up pushi…

I dont understand how you arent seeing the present. Parlar is back up and you are still whining about private organizations excercizing their right to not assemble with non protected classes. Now if you have an anti trust problem with these companies, I think you would be hitting on more important protections of liberties.

Are you using your energy to protest against Florida silencing that data scientist? That is direct government censorship of life protecting information and government accountability. Why us that not as important than treating Parlar with extraodinary privileges that we dont provide to any other outlet? It makes me think these free speech arguments are made in less than good faith.

Re: What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

#22

Doesn't exactly look worthy of losing our collective freedom of speech and right to assemble over. A stark contrast over the story being pushed in the media. Yet this event will be used as a scapegoat to push those very things in the near future. Just know that any laws passed or precedents set will be used first on the "radical right", will undoubtedly be used on the anti-vax and conspiracy crowd but will eventually…

So it's not the people that participated in an seditious attack on the capital and the most cherished democratic process, the democratic choosing of the US president that are the problem here? They built gallows outside the capital, they screamed "hang Mike Pence" because he didn't literally attempt to end American democracy for them. It's still "those other people who want to take our freedumbs away" that are the pr…

I'm afraid I see it differently. After years of carefully watching the media, I've realized that they do not have the citizen's best interests at heart. Whatever they're pushing, I'm intensely suspicious of.

Here's an interesting thought experiment for you to conduct:

What if these incidiary figures committing violence, egging on fellow protestors and erecting guillotines at the Capitol were actually bad actors with a nefarious agenda.

The crazier the crowd looks, the easier it is to ram through legislation that curtails the right to dissent. Personally I find it completely believable and considering the events of the last couple years, likely.

Re: What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

#23

Doesn't exactly look worthy of losing our collective freedom of speech and right to assemble over. A stark contrast over the story being pushed in the media. Yet this event will be used as a scapegoat to push those very things in the near future. Just know that any laws passed or precedents set will be used first on the "radical right", will undoubtedly be used on the anti-vax and conspiracy crowd but will eventually…

So it's not the people that participated in an seditious attack on the capital and the most cherished democratic process, the democratic choosing of the US president that are the problem here? They built gallows outside the capital, they screamed "hang Mike Pence" because he didn't literally attempt to end American democracy for them. It's still "those other people who want to take our freedumbs away" that are the pr…

You don't appreciate freedom of speech until you personally lose it. That usually happens after others you don't like have already lost theirs.

Re: What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

#24
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Five times and no comments on anything. I wonder why such a trove isn't worthy of discussion? I suspect because if people watched those videos, they'd come away with a very different perspective. Pretty much all you see is people standing around waving signs and chanting -- literally textbook non-violent protesting. Once you see them enter the Capital, you still don't see waves of violence and destruction. There are…

Storming parliament is fundamentally different from walking down some street with signs. That's true even if the same amount of violence somehow happens at those events. Which it didn't: These people had functioning gallows, yelled "kill Mike Pence", actually beat a police officer to death, managed to trample four of their own to death, brought zip-ties to take hostages, etc. And you consider that peaceful ?

You should look at the actual charges for the things you mention.

ZERO charges of rioting. ZERO charges of attempted kidnapping. ZERO charges of insurrection. ZERO charges related to congress-people in any way, shape or form.

Zip-tie guy (the retired Lt. Col) and other zip-tie guy: entering a restricted building, violent entry, and disorderly conduct. NOTHING about your kidnapping claims.

Likewise, Viking Dude, West Virginia Rep, confederate flag guy, Auschwitz guy Olympic Gold Medalist, and around 60 others: entering a restricted building, violent entry, and disorderly conduct. Sometimes restricted building charge is swapped for obstruction, picketing in the Capitol, trespassing, or dropped completely

Molotov guy: 16 DC unregistered weapon violations, 2 federal violations (probably Molotovs), but he wasn't actually in the Capitol as far as I can tell, so any mention of those completely lacks intent.

Other big weapon guy: Making threats and unlicensed weapons, but again, not actually charged for being near the Capitol.

Guy sitting in Pelosi's desk, fur coat guy, and podium guy: violent entry, disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds, and theft of public money, property or records.

Police officers: not sure about charges, but claim the DC police let them in which would probably mean nothing sticks.

Another guy got a curfew and unlawful entry for standing in a parking lot. Got to pump up the numbers somehow.

Now, we DO have 1 murderer (killed police officer with fire extinguisher). We have around 18 people wanted for "assault" (which includes simply shoving an officer -- serious, but nothing unusual during protests). We have 7 other people wanted for a police beating that ARE serious.

Finally, we have a seemingly unrelated pipe bomber who was likely using the event for cover. He/She (unlike everyone at the Capitol) made sure to cover their face and targeted the DNC/RNC headquarters rather than being involved in the "stop the steal" protest.

That's at MOST 30 people who did anything more than wandering around the capitol. Notice also that they didn't even try to charge with rioting. That's three orders of magnitude LESS than a single percent of all protesters.

Meanwhile, Antifa was blowing up firework cannonballs in the faces of police in Oregon for MONTHS at a FEDERAL courthouse. They called to kill all kinds of people -- including the president and vice president. There's videos of them doing stuff like lying in wait with hammers until police tried to go through the door. They tried to block police inside a precinct and burn it down. They beat scores of police to a bloody pulp. I don't care how you try to paint it, that was a way worse event both by the percent of protesters involved in violence and by the raw numbers of hospitalizations, permanently disabled or dead people at their hands.

As to trampling, it's sad, but people have gotten trampled to death at all kinds of events and it doesn't really indicate very much. For example, in 2019, 3 people got trampled to death in a St. Patrick's Day line. Around 150 people got trampled to death in 2020, and that's just the ones recorded on Wikipedia. This isn't a good argument for anything and might have happened anyway.

I hold that all 30 of those people at the Capitol should be found, arrested, and charged. I don't agree that a couple hundred thousand other people should be tarred and feathered along with them. I especially dislike the hypocrisy that the worst political violence in the US since the Civil War should be labelled as perfectly acceptable just because you agree with their end goal because the end does NOT justify those means.

Re: What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

#25
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, that's how this works. They take all of our freedoms away while you cheer them on. You know, this isn't the first time it's happened. People aren't just pulling this out of thin air. There's a very long history of these things playing out that way, time after time. We are currently in an era, since 2001, where every time the government or corporations decide to do something to "protect" us, they end up pushi…

> What I don't understand is how people still don't know their history, and think this time it's somehow different. Yes, let's talk about history. Let's see, was there another case study in history where you have a failed coup attempt spurred on by a egotistical leader whose shtick was to scapegoat sections of the population and play "us vs them" politics? How did that turn out?

A 'failed coup' is hyperbole.

Re: What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

#26
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were more than what I'd call dozens, there's already been over 100 arrests and it's early in the investigation. Also basing this on the videos I've seen. There were hallways full of people packed behind barriers, streams of people going by different locations, etc. I wouldn't say violence of this sort is representative of Republicans, but Republicans are too accepting of the extremists that this event grew out…

You're right, it was more than dozens. I think my mental model is something like: - Dozens of severely bad actors - many of which actually did intend abduction or murder. These people are terrifying. - Hundreds of bad actors. People attempting to subvert democracy which, despite sounding alarmist or cheesy without proper context (You need to see the videos to understand, I think) is also very scary. These people will…

The FBI only lists around 30 people wanted on anything more serious than unlawful entry, violent entry, trespassing, or similar. They weren't even charged with rioting because (as these videos show), wandering around gawking at the Capitol building isn't rioting by any reasonable definition. That wandering also doesn't play well with the idea that they intended violence against the legislature.

Yes, they should probably be charged with something, but the punishment should fit the crime and I doubt most of those people will have anything super serious happen (even if the Judge is trying to send a message).

EDIT: as it seems unclear, these are people WANTED for crimes NOT people actually charged (that number is lower).

Re: What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

#27
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Five times and no comments on anything. I wonder why such a trove isn't worthy of discussion? I suspect because if people watched those videos, they'd come away with a very different perspective. Pretty much all you see is people standing around waving signs and chanting -- literally textbook non-violent protesting. Once you see them enter the Capital, you still don't see waves of violence and destruction. There are…

> Most of those didn't have large groups just standing around waving signs and chanting -- almost everyone was involved in the violence and destruction This is demonstrably false, and you should retract it. Second, it is qualitatively different to riot and break into one of our main bodies of government and threaten the lives of anyone (even if it was just a select few out of the larger whole) during an important par…

There were 100-200,000 people. Less than 100 were wanted for entering the capitol. Less than 30 of those got charged with more than some variant of unlawful entering. NONE got charged with the stuff people have been talking about (I go into the details in another post on this thread).

Even with the National Guard and the anger at being disrupted, they still left and the violence didn't hold a candle to most protests (You should look up videos of the Antifa attacks on the Federal Government in Oregon or any of the other large protests over last summer and you'll see what I'm talking about).

Re: What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

#28
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, it was more than dozens. I think my mental model is something like: - Dozens of severely bad actors - many of which actually did intend abduction or murder. These people are terrifying. - Hundreds of bad actors. People attempting to subvert democracy which, despite sounding alarmist or cheesy without proper context (You need to see the videos to understand, I think) is also very scary. These people will…

The FBI only lists around 30 people wanted on anything more serious than unlawful entry, violent entry, trespassing, or similar. They weren't even charged with rioting because (as these videos show), wandering around gawking at the Capitol building isn't rioting by any reasonable definition. That wandering also doesn't play well with the idea that they intended violence against the legislature. Yes, they should proba…

> The FBI only lists around 30 people wanted on anything more serious than unlawful entry, violent entry, trespassing, or similar.

That number is increasing daily. The easy charges come first, because the evidence needed to make them withstand a probable cause hearing is trivial.

> They weren't even charged with rioting because

...For the people (those charged only in D.C. Superior Court) for whom more serious charges weren't already clearly available, the unlawful entry charge is open and shut for arrest and extra charges while investigation continues as to the full set of charges each should face doesn't actually do anything. Also, riot in the D.C. code isn't a more serious offense than unlawful entry on public property.

While for those already charged in US District Court for US Code offenses, most of which are felonies, the D.C. Code misdemeanor for rioting is an irrelevancy.

Re: What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

#29
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, that's how this works. They take all of our freedoms away while you cheer them on. You know, this isn't the first time it's happened. People aren't just pulling this out of thin air. There's a very long history of these things playing out that way, time after time. We are currently in an era, since 2001, where every time the government or corporations decide to do something to "protect" us, they end up pushi…

> What I don't understand is how people still don't know their history, and think this time it's somehow different. Yes, let's talk about history. Let's see, was there another case study in history where you have a failed coup attempt spurred on by a egotistical leader whose shtick was to scapegoat sections of the population and play "us vs them" politics? How did that turn out?

If you're going to make claims as serious as attempting a coup, you'd better have evidence.

NOBODY was charged with rioting, let alone sedition or insurrection. Less than 30 in a crowd of a couple hundred thousand got charged with anything more serious than some variant of unlawful entry (and only about 100 people are wanted at all).

If such charges could be reasonably made, don't you think they would make them? The prosecutor isn't an idiot. He/She knows that no reasonable jury will convict on those charges. It would even be a great political win if they could get them to stick, but it's so far out of reach that they won't take on the loss and resulting publicity.

It's far easier for the media to make claims than to substantiate them. I'd guess that there's a serious risk of several big media companies being sued.

Re: What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

#30
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storming parliament is fundamentally different from walking down some street with signs. That's true even if the same amount of violence somehow happens at those events. Which it didn't: These people had functioning gallows, yelled "kill Mike Pence", actually beat a police officer to death, managed to trample four of their own to death, brought zip-ties to take hostages, etc. And you consider that peaceful ?

You should look at the actual charges for the things you mention. ZERO charges of rioting. ZERO charges of attempted kidnapping. ZERO charges of insurrection. ZERO charges related to congress-people in any way, shape or form. Zip-tie guy (the retired Lt. Col) and other zip-tie guy: entering a restricted building, violent entry, and disorderly conduct. NOTHING about your kidnapping claims. Likewise, Viking Dude, West…

> ZERO charges of rioting. ZERO charges of attempted kidnapping. ZERO charges of insurrection. ZERO charges related to congress-people in any way, shape or form.

The initial charges in any event like this are whatever is easiest to get to withstand a probable cause hearing. Serious charges that aren't immediately, trivially clear from the circumstances of arrest take more time (especially in the Federal system, where serious charges require indictment or the defense agreeing to proceed by information, which usually only happens with a plea bargain.)

Also, the District Court-charged unlawful entry on restricted building or grounds charges (which sound superficially similar to the D.C. Superior Court-charged unlawful entry on public property charges) are, actually, much more serious offenses about the more limited zones designated for the security of the President, Vice President, President-elect, VP-elect, and other Secret Service protectees.

> That’s at MOST 30 people

No, it’s AT LEAST 26 people, not AT MOST 30. There’s no upper bound provided by the currently identified perpetrators of violent acts.

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