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NovelWriter 1.0 – A markdown-like editor for writing novels

novelwriter.io

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Re: NovelWriter 1.0 – A markdown-like editor for writing novels

#151
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this matters because the industry relies on docx (and it's a crusty, oldschool industry so good luck changing that). A minimum for a novel writing tool is that one can actually send the novel out in a format where your agent and editor will read it. Otherwise you're not getting that novel published.

I see you hate the Unix philosophy....for conversions use pandoc. A Song of Ice and Fire was not written with Word.

> A Song of Ice and Fire was not written with Word.

When startups haven't even started up yet but are worrying about how they can scale to billion-dollar unicorn level, a common refrain on Hacker News has been "you are not Google."

Allow me to give you the fiction writers' equivalent: you are not George R.R. Martin.

Re: NovelWriter 1.0 – A markdown-like editor for writing novels

#152
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this matters because the industry relies on docx (and it's a crusty, oldschool industry so good luck changing that). A minimum for a novel writing tool is that one can actually send the novel out in a format where your agent and editor will read it. Otherwise you're not getting that novel published.

I see you hate the Unix philosophy....for conversions use pandoc. A Song of Ice and Fire was not written with Word.

When you too can afford to pay your editors, proofreaders, and publishers to accommodate your unique file formats and the associated changes to their workflow, you too can write in WordStar.

Re: NovelWriter 1.0 – A markdown-like editor for writing novels

#153

On Fiction.live https://fiction.live (twitch for webfiction) we use straight up HTML through a WYSIWYG editor. If there's an easily extensible markdown-like with full features for stuff common in webfiction like spoiler tags we would like to adopt it.

Fiction.live looks really interesting. Thanks for sharing it. Might want to check out https://twinery.org/ if you haven't already

Re: NovelWriter 1.0 – A markdown-like editor for writing novels

#154
post #17

Outside of the more technically inclined; Does anyone who is a long-form (novel) writer actually use markdown? Outside of blogging, which it was invented for and makes total sense for syntax conversion of free formed text to html is there any real use for it? Obviously you don't have to use it if you don't want to, but it sort of feels odd to me that all these developers making writing/notes apps that neglect rich te…

Well, adding this condition:

> Outside of the more technically inclined...

Makes it hard to definitively answer your question:

> Does anyone who is a long-form (novel) writer actually use Markdown?

I am aware of published authors who've used Ulysses, a Markdown-based multi-document editor for the Mac, for writing novels.[1] Semi-famously, mystery author David Hewson is a huge Ulysses fan, and wrote his own book about his process. I don't get the impression Hewson is super technically inclined the way, say, Matt Gemmell -- a software engineer turned novelist who's also a huge Ulysses fan -- clearly is. Some of the appeal for non-nerds is, I think, part of what grognards like George R.R. Martin and Robert Sawyer argue gives WordStar for DOS a big appeal: it's just you and your text with very little else to distract you. I've personally found that a bit overstated (most word processors have some kind of "draft mode" that, while perhaps not as minimal as just You And Your Plain Text, gets the job done), but it's clearly a thing, and I admit I enjoy writing in Ulysses more than I would expect.

Ulysses does, it's worth noting, have the capability to compile and export documents to Microsoft Word format. It's not as flexible (or overengineered) as Scrivener's compilation tools, but that's really something you should be saving until you have what you think is the final draft -- Ulysses and Scrivener, and for that matter NovelWriter, are ultimately composition tools, not editing tools. (Once you're in a "dialogue" with your editor sending Word documents with embedded revisions and comments, your manuscript is almost certainly going to stay in Word.)

I've written two novels with Scrivener, but I am slowly moving toward Ulysses for a variety of reasons -- but they are, indeed, technical reasons. I don't find the "detritus of special characters" to be particularly annoying with a well-chosen Ulysses theme; the underlines/asterisks are faded out and the italics and bold are, well, italics and bold, and for fiction that's virtually all I need.

Re: NovelWriter 1.0 – A markdown-like editor for writing novels

#155
post #17

Outside of the more technically inclined; Does anyone who is a long-form (novel) writer actually use markdown? Outside of blogging, which it was invented for and makes total sense for syntax conversion of free formed text to html is there any real use for it? Obviously you don't have to use it if you don't want to, but it sort of feels odd to me that all these developers making writing/notes apps that neglect rich te…

Given how many published novelist write their first draft by hand, I'd argue rich text is not useful at all. Manuscripts typically are just plain texts, at most some italics. The organization, however, is very important.

I know authors who write directly into the Vellum app, so I think you are 100% right.

Re: NovelWriter 1.0 – A markdown-like editor for writing novels

#156
Are there any minimal editors like this that support vim-like keybindings?

I've been using Sublime-Text with a markdown plugin, but interested in something more focused on prose writing.

(I also use 1Writer on iOS which is a solid plaintext/markdown editor.)

Re: NovelWriter 1.0 – A markdown-like editor for writing novels

#157
post #55
post #31

The proliferation of markdown forks is a mess. Can't you just use something better to begin with, like asciidoc? I think you can likely just use existing asciidoc mechanisms to support the same thing and then existing editors will still be usable.

The proliferation of markdown itself is also a mess IMO. Outside of web writing it seems really more effort than it's worth. Seems like everyone making a writing tool of any kind is ditching rich text in favor of it for no good reason.

For me, plaintext (like Markdown) is a strength over proprietary or binary formats and I've accepted the tradeoffs. It's the primary "good reason" I use Markdown. I have confidence that text will always be readable in the future even if I don't have the app that made it. Secondarily I find most word processors overkill with toolbars everywhere and I do not like using them.

Re: NovelWriter 1.0 – A markdown-like editor for writing novels

#158
Lots of comments here to the effect of "novelists don't need full-featured rich styling*, it's all just plain text!" It's true for _many_ novels.

But it's not true for _all_ novels! House of Leaves (Danielewski) and S. (Abrams/Dorst) are full-fledged multimedia novels. Many fantasy novels use maps; Crying of Lot 49 uses at least 1 image, in situ. And I would love to see an edition of Pale Fire (Nabokov) that interposes annotations between the "original formatting" of the poem!

"The novel" isn't really a well-defined concept...there are many interpretations of the basic concept! The high % of novels that are "just text" is descriptive, not prescriptive.

* Use whatever definition of "rich text" you like, I don't care

Re: NovelWriter 1.0 – A markdown-like editor for writing novels

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is now significantly more steps than downloading Scrivener.

However, since NovelWriter is GPLv3 licensed, they could in theory incorporate code from Pandoc, which is GPLv2 licensed, directly into NovelWriter.

I think you guys are missing the point. The point isn’t “how do we get from markdown to docx” but rather “why doesn’t this tool support the format my publisher expects”. Yes, pandoc is amazing, but the product needs to support exporting to docx for the publisher so that the user of NovelWriter feels supported and empowered to write.

TeaDrunk said it best: it’s now significantly more steps the user shouldn’t have to do.

Re: NovelWriter 1.0 – A markdown-like editor for writing novels

#160
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some specific requirements? Aren't most formatting done by the publisher anyway?

publishers format for print, but the submission needs to be in a specific format too. this stems from the days where manuscripts were submitted on paper, and not electronically. one could argue that with electronic submission such format requirements are no longer relevant, but we all know that people don't like change. standard manuscript format looks roughly like this: lines are double spaced first line of each par…

These requirements seem to be easily within pandoc’s ability though, as it can use a reference docx file.
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