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Is Bitcoin a Scam?

theguardian.com

91–100 of 106 posts

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#91
post #24

- Proof of work is inherently wasteful. - The ever expanding blockchain is wasteful (in storage, computation, network). - Having every transaction recorded forever is the opposite of anonymity ("pseudonymous" - come on!). - The energy usage is insane. - The throughput is way too slow. While there may be an anonymous digital currency that doesn't use a lot of energy, it probably has to be based on something other than…

The entire bitcoin blockchain is 11 years old and fits in $6 USD of hard drive space. The biggest problem is that the average transaction is now between $10 USD to $17 USD.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#92
post #47

The amount of FUD in every Bitcoin-related thread on HN is mind boggling. The network is decentralized, permissionless, pseudonymous and cheap. It is a stable protocol and layer 2 solutions are being built upon it to address the downsides blocking every day use. He who controls the money, controls the world. The control is slipping and the roaches are starting to run around in panic.

> He who controls the money, controls the world. The control is slipping and the roaches are starting to run around in panic.

Well considering that FBI, State of Bulgaria and a guy nobody ever saw (his alleged initials are SN) are 3 largest bitcoin holders I'd say that it's pretty clear who will have the control of the world!

Also, world population is around 8 billion. Number of bitcoin wallets is around 65 million, or a whopping 0.8% (not counting probably myriads of people having more than 1 wallet).

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#93
post #55
post #24

- Proof of work is inherently wasteful. - The ever expanding blockchain is wasteful (in storage, computation, network). - Having every transaction recorded forever is the opposite of anonymity ("pseudonymous" - come on!). - The energy usage is insane. - The throughput is way too slow. While there may be an anonymous digital currency that doesn't use a lot of energy, it probably has to be based on something other than…

> Proof of work is inherently wasteful. But it's a necessary evil for a _distributed_ currency. It's a way to protect payment validation from being controlled by a single operator by making a "hostile take over" very expensive. IMHO criticizing Bitcoin for its "proof of work" algorithm only converys a serious lack of understanding of how crypto currencies actually work. There is an alternative, namely, the "proof of…

> But it's a necessary evil for a _distributed_ currency.

Bitcoin is an equity based currency. If you have some Bitcoin you "own" it much like you would own a physical thing, like a lump of gold. And indeed, you are right, to implement a permissionless equity based currency, you probably need something like proof of work to ensure that there is an objective ordering of transactions.

However....! You can also build a credit based currency, whereby anyone can issue IOUs which are agreements between a debtor and a creditor. In this regard you don't "own" an IOU but you are a participant in an agreement which is an IOU. That might be pedantic but it's a difference from an equity based money system. For a credit based system you don't need proof of work or an objective ordering of transactions as any transaction is just a bilateral agreement between two parties. You could make the IOUs bearer instruments by introducing some blockchain elements (unilateral ledger updates) but ultimately there isn't much point in this because you have to trust the issuer. The difficulty with this type of system is that it's tough to bootstrap it - how do you measure reputation in such a system? How do you determine who's credit is good and who's credit is bad?

I think it would be exciting to see more research into distributed credit based monetary systems. Interestingly, our current monetary system is basically a pure credit system and that in this system we can view different types of credit as having a position in a money hierarchy. At the top you have central bank credit, next bank credit, next company credit, next credit issued by individuals. When an issuer's credit can be trusted enough such that people can use it as a medium of exchange (it can be endorsed from one party to another) then it _becomes_ money. That's quite cool. You can build a whole distributed monetary system from an endogenous money supply!

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#94
post #88
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, "SWIFT" international bank transactions require up to 5 work days. Here in Germany, sending money from one bank to another still takes at least one up to three _work_ days. So in the worst case, you're wiring money to sb on Friday and he will receive it by Wednesday. Compare that to 10 minutes required by Bitcoin anywhere on the planet. Of course, there are special purpose banking products to accelerate transac…

https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/be59a6bb09757ef4dec9ed7841... $2M transfer costs $1. From/to anywhere in the world. As a comparison, my freelance fees regularly came $13 short, and the only explanation was "interbank transfer charges". Plus the sender had to pay his own fees. And then my own bank would charge me ~$15 for accepting deposits from outside EU. I'll take Bitcoin over the traditional banking cartel any d…

> I'll take Bitcoin over the traditional banking cartel any day.

Good luck paying your lunch with Bitcoin.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#95
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the first and last points are the worst IMO. The others could be worked around maybe, but as long as it takes 3+ hours to carry out a transaction, and the resource requirements for partaking in the network are ever-increasing, I just can't see it ever scaling to be usable.

> The others could be worked around maybe, but as long as it takes 3+ hours to carry out a transaction So does bank transfers though, and we have been able to work around that for quite some time now.

You really need to change banks if this happens to you. Bank transfers are done in seconds in the SEPA area. Pretty sure there's something similar outside of Europe, too.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#96
post #88
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, "SWIFT" international bank transactions require up to 5 work days. Here in Germany, sending money from one bank to another still takes at least one up to three _work_ days. So in the worst case, you're wiring money to sb on Friday and he will receive it by Wednesday. Compare that to 10 minutes required by Bitcoin anywhere on the planet. Of course, there are special purpose banking products to accelerate transac…

https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/be59a6bb09757ef4dec9ed7841... $2M transfer costs $1. From/to anywhere in the world. As a comparison, my freelance fees regularly came $13 short, and the only explanation was "interbank transfer charges". Plus the sender had to pay his own fees. And then my own bank would charge me ~$15 for accepting deposits from outside EU. I'll take Bitcoin over the traditional banking cartel any d…

True, many banks charge unreasonable fees for international transactions, but that‘s fixable: There is a very competitive market for international money transmission.

You‘re probably losing out much more than $13+$15 on bad exchange rates in the process too, so you should definitely shop around for options.

Chances are that the same transaction on Bitcoin, including conversion fees between your client‘s currency X and BTC, and BTC and your country’s currency Y (which you definitely will need, if not for food, then at least for income tax) is more expensive.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#97
How can bitcoin be anything other than a scam, now.

It has no legal, ethical use case. The only reason to buy bitcoin is you hope some bigger fool will buy it from you later.

Not quite a pyramid scheme is the best thing anybody can say about it

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#98
BTC in itself is not a scam the same way the internet is not a scam, but almost all scams are now internet based. A lot of the altcoins had good intentions, but when money comes in and the incentive of doing good work is not much, but everything else brings in money, means that money starts to corrupt.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#99
post #24

- Proof of work is inherently wasteful. - The ever expanding blockchain is wasteful (in storage, computation, network). - Having every transaction recorded forever is the opposite of anonymity ("pseudonymous" - come on!). - The energy usage is insane. - The throughput is way too slow. While there may be an anonymous digital currency that doesn't use a lot of energy, it probably has to be based on something other than…

Calling something "wasteful" is merely philosophical. What exactly is wasteful? You eating anything that isn't absolutely required, maybe just some IVs, is that not wasteful? The USAs entire meat chain, is that not wasteful? Transportation when online meetings are fine, is that not wasteful? The universe itself burning out one day, is that not wasteful to existence? Wasteful is not an argument at the end of the day.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#100
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean to imply Bitcoin shouldn't be criticized. But saying Bitcoin simply wastes energy by applying a "proof of work" scheme is totally naive. It's not easy to replace and the advantages and risks of "proof of stake" are not clear, yet, I belive. BTW: For others who have never heard of "proof of stake" and "proof of work" ... "Proof of work" requires miners to solve a cryptographic puzzle taking the giant sha…

Nano has no fees or mining. Instead of traditional distributed proof of stake, it uses open representative voting. https://docs.nano.org/what-is-nano/overview/#representatives... If nano (or any other tech) achieves greater utility for transactions without using proof of work, then it is arguable that BTC's use of energy is wasteful. However, to be specific I would defend the consumer/miner's choice to use energy in…

Nano, and many other projects, have much better and efficient tech than BTC. The problem with most of them are the screwups in various proportions (premines, developer fee, foundations), and how they are developed.

BTC development is RFC based, and users approve by running own nodes, and miners have to comply in between. Until a project comes along which doesn't try to swindle its user base BTC will stay dominant.

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