Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers • Hacker News Board

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#891

Post by acdha » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

babesh wrote: post #314

cortesoft wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this is also the beauty of free expression - it prevents anyone from using it to enact total control. This is the really tricky part, though... absolute free expression only prevents people from enacting total control if it persists; however, free speech is not something that can’t be undone. This is a form of the paradox of tolerance. If people use their absolute free speech to push lies and propaganda that al…

That is why you need an educated populace. By educated, we mean one that can think critically and independently rather than a college credential.

Education isn’t a panacea. Think about how there’s the stereotype of pro-Confederates as ignorant hillbillies but then look at who reacts whenever someone suggests not having an inaccurate statute in a public place or naming a U.S. military base after someone who fought against the U.S. military. You’ll find people with Ph.Ds arguing to protect that, not because they’re incapable of learning but because they were deliberately educated with incorrect information and, since the results haven’t harmed them personally, will use their critical thinking and analytic skills to mount as strong a defense as they can. Thinking “critically and independently” is also how people who believe in creationism, are anti-vaccination, climate change deniers, opposed to public health practices during the pandemic, etc. explain their beliefs, too, often sincerely.

I’m not sure how to break that cycle. It seems to require some kind of forcing function which pushes the topic into verifiable facts and logic but that’s hard to against opposition and only works when things are fairly clear-cut (e.g. you can show Robert E. Lee was a bad person from historical records but it’s not easy to objectively prove the causes of poverty or crime rates).

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#892

Post by emphatizer2000 » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

ReflectedImage wrote: post #686

emphatizer2000 wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"attempt to install a different regime" How can anybody believe such nonsense? Sorry, but simply taking over the capitol doesn't automatically make you the ruler of a new regime. It's not a video game were you get made king when you conquer the target zone.

It's not the protesters that made it a coup, it's the fact the security forces of the country allowed it to happen. Angry protesters are a dime a dozen, it's the letting them into the main government building that makes it a coup.

So it wasn't the protesters, it was the security forces who were planning a coup? Interesting perspective. Are they being prosecuted? Where did they meet and discuss their plan? How come they were all in on it?

It seems possible they avoided injuries and bloodshed with their actions, but that would be such a boring explanation`, right?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#893

Post by foolinaround » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #687

foolinaround wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let me step back 1 more time... forget court cases, Parler - what its doing etc. -- lets focus on tech perspective take a tech CTO, who looks at AWS TOS. Do you find any terms that provide details on the moderation needed? There can be any number of apps and business models -- so when his company gets such a notice, what can be done? there was also the case of a baker who disagreed to serve gay people with their wedd…

Apologies for a second reply. > forget court cases, Parler - what its doing etc. So we'll just pretend we can rewind to back prior to the Capitol riot & clown show. Got it. > So far, one looked as AWS as infrastructure just like your electric, phone or gas company - going forward, there will be a re-think here. If we "forget about Parler", why would a tech CTO think any differently this week than they did the prior w…

my friend, how will they melt away? It just was'nt imagined.

If we step back to 2018 - No BLM, no capitol riots -- no one would even imagine a AWS pulling the plug.

As a startup, it used to be a no-brainer to start on AWS first.

The advice given then was not get entired by AWS goodies that locks one to the platform, but one never thought much of using EC2

What i started arguing for was that there will be an interface on top of EC2, that would enable one to provision just as fast on Azure, Google or on bare metal.

In this case, one can still get on AWS, and if you have a problem, be able to transition to your own server as fast as you can.

this is obviously not in AWS or Google's interest, so needs to be a community driven open source effort, with the entrenched players constantly trying to break their APIs where possible.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#894

Post by forgetfulness » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 1:44 PM UTC

antibuddy wrote: post #874

forgetfulness wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends, are you setting the goalpost for "believing in free speech" as far as tolerating the President of the United States using social media for spreading the idea that the elections were stolen from him and that people should fight the results? Way before that you could see that people became radicalized by consuming conspiracy theories far, far faster than any individual or organization could pull them back to s…

If you have any evidence that Trump called for violence, come forward with it. PS.: And also how Parler is responsible for any of this would be interesting.

It doesn't matter if he told them or not to grab the zipties and make the pipe bombs, he was riling them up about how their country was being stolen from their dear leader, the only politician who cares for them, right before their eyes, and to take that sentiment to the ceremony of ratification of the elections he lost.

Parler was a place where people discussed these things leading up to an abortive coup or revolution, however you want to call it. The US clearly doesn't have the means to control these things as of now, Big Tech taking the matter on its own hands is merely symptomatic of the lack of legislation preventing the spread of radical fascist ideology.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#895

Post by tw04 » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #744

tw04 wrote: post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This did happen, repeatedly, throughout his presidency. There's video evidence, it isn't difficult to find. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trump-incitement-vi...

Every single incident on that page involves a series of "protestors" who were forcibly ejected from a series of 2016 rallies after attempting to disrupt them, and in one case, involves a "protestor" getting removed by the secret service after trying to rush the stage. Snopes is here holding up the president saying he'd punch someone who rushed onto the stage as "encouraging violence at his rallies", which is such a w…

So what you're saying is: he called for violence against someone that disagrees with him politically. And the problem is, you apparently fall into the very category of: seeking truth isn't important, believing what you want is. Because you literally just fabricated a story to support Trump that's easily disproven by the very link you're commenting about.

Had you actually watched the videos: no, every single one of those people did not attempt to rush the stage, that happened exactly once. And in that occurrence he didn't even call for violence until the NEXT DAY, when a normal Presidential candidate would've had time to gather themselves and act like an adult... No, every single one was not arrested by secret service.

He spent MONTHS telling his supporters that the election was "stolen from them" and that they need to "fight like real patriots", but again, because you support him that's not a call for violence. Nevermind the end result: the violence he called for - you just don't agree that's what he wanted. Which of course is why he refused to condemn it while it was happening, and took a full day to say anything meaningful after every one of his political allies condemned him.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#896

Post by loughnane » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

I’m stunned at how frequently this sentiment is being brought up. We have a significant event happen and many of us are so quickly ready to give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety.

I can almost forgive younger folks for these sentiments, but those of us who lived through 9/11 should know better.

How many of us lamented the surveillance and overreach of the government then? Remember all the news articles about potential for repealing the patriot act? Remember how as time went by the overreach felt more and more egregious?

Would our country be in a better place if in an alternate history we had near-perfect surveillance on civil rights leaders? On purported communists in the 50s? On bootleggers? Agitators for suffrage? On black people during reconstruction?

If you think “yes” then it’s consistent to want more surveillance now. If you’re like me and think that such surveillance then would have the country in a worse place now then recognize the current moment for what it is: a serious attack on our democracy and a reflection of deep divide. It is NOT a good reason to become Yet Another Authoritarian State.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#897

Post by rubyist5eva » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

erichocean wrote: post #746

rubyist5eva wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. Today, we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity of our elections. But whether or not they stand strong for our country, our country. Our country has been under siege for a long time. Far longer than this four year period." "So we are going to--we are going to walk dow…

To the USG, that's incitement—look what happened immediately after. There aren't 25K troops in DC as I write this because Trump did not incite a coup/insurrection, they are they because he did . The reaction itself is the proof. You may not think Trump's rally should have had that effect, but at this point, it's moot: it did.

Counterpoint: the attempted coup was gonna happen anyway, regardless of what Trump said.

I'm very weary of a country and a government in which we can be charged with "incitement" or even treason for suggesting to peacefully exercise our 1st amendment rights to dissent against it.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#898

Post by acdha » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

jimz wrote: post #813

jariel wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Threats of violence' 'Threats of coordinated violence' 'Satire with violence' Are all part of a type of information wherein we can make rules and try to apply them fairly. Saying 'Twitter allowed this but not that' is besides the point - it illustrates that Twitter is either inconsistent or hypocritical or both ... but it doesn't abnegate the notion that policies can be crudely made to work. If you straight up threa…

The difference between a lie and a mere falsehood or even a mistake is intent and knowledge. The legal system is perfectly capable of determining intent and knowledge (when including not just actual but cases where knowledge was recklessly disregarded). We also already have laws that in certain contexts outlaw such lying. The most common examples are perjury and lying to officials either FBI or immigration, the latte…

> But outside of that I'd much rather have corporations than bureaucrats handling such matters, because at least they can be incentivized to do the right thing. After all, corporations are ultimately voluntary entities formed and owned by average people, and when their conduct fails to match societal expectations, they lose customers and revenue, which is at least some incentive.

Those are some awfully large assumptions. We know that incentives are not trivial to structure, companies choose not to comply (think about how companies like Facebook just write fines off as a business expense), or actively attempt to interfere with the processes which manage those incentives.

Similarly, your definition of companies is unsupported by evidence. Few average people create them (it costs too much), and they're only completely voluntary in a few areas where entry costs are low, consolidation is uncommon, and the services are voluntary. In computing, for example, what percentage of people have a realistic choice other than deciding whether they prefer Apple to Google, or Apple to Microsoft?

A better approach is to stop assuming sweeping properties inherent to the sector and look at the incentive structures. Almost all organizations do exactly what they’re setup to do and need outside visibility and oversight to make sure that aligns with the larger needs of society. Both government agencies and companies produce bad results when the incentives don’t align — as we can see in this very case where it’s easy to ignore problems when the alternatives cost money.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#899

Post by travisporter » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

coffexx wrote: post #297

travisporter wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes central authorities and mainstream popular media inherently more suspicious? I disagree that having worked on tech projects would help you spot propaganda. It is illogical to assume you're an expert on the stock market just because you know how to code. (There's a fallacy name for this one which is escaping me)

> What makes central authorities and mainstream popular media inherently more suspicious? I'll take a stab. Central authorities tend to be and to become political in nature. Their incentives include, among other things, maintaining their funding and not looking bad (eg: maintaining a purpose for existing, excusing their own misbehavior, making any political benefactors happy). What they say will probably align with t…

This makes sense. It's hard to find the truth given extreme polarization. I don't trust individual posts on social media. My reasoning for trusting mainstream news outlets was that maybe they have more journalistic integrity than the newcomers who have a lot less to lose. I guess I must rethink.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#900

Post by NationalPark » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #772

jeromegv wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inciting violence and overthrowing a government is already as illegal as child pornography is. Would you rather have all child pornography kept online up until a judge has declared that person guilty?

> Inciting violence and overthrowing a government is already as illegal as child pornography is Doing it is illegal, advocating for it is explicitly legal. Most of this discussion is about the latter.

No, that's not right. See Brandenburg v. Ohio - incitement is explicitly not legal, per the Supreme Court. The classic qualifying line is "imminent lawless action".