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Is Bitcoin a Scam?

theguardian.com

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Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#81

Post by xiphias2 »

tmarice wrote: post #47

The amount of FUD in every Bitcoin-related thread on HN is mind boggling. The network is decentralized, permissionless, pseudonymous and cheap. It is a stable protocol and layer 2 solutions are being built upon it to address the downsides blocking every day use. He who controls the money, controls the world. The control is slipping and the roaches are starting to run around in panic.

It just means that Bitcoin holders are still early adopters.

I have seen Ethereum described as a scam many times for example, but in reality it just makes different tradeoffs than Bitcoin (some of them I like, but with other tradeoffs I'm not comfortable with).

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#82

Post by jpmoral »

zulln wrote: post #35
nivenkos wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the first and last points are the worst IMO. The others could be worked around maybe, but as long as it takes 3+ hours to carry out a transaction, and the resource requirements for partaking in the network are ever-increasing, I just can't see it ever scaling to be usable.

> The others could be worked around maybe, but as long as it takes 3+ hours to carry out a transaction So does bank transfers though, and we have been able to work around that for quite some time now.

I keep seeing this type of comment in Bitcoin threads. Is this something people in the Bitcoin space widely believe, that bank transfers are necessarily slow and expensive? Free, near-instant bank transfers have been a thing for a few years now (a decade in the UK IIUC).

Or have I completely misunderstood what you were saying?

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#83

Post by girvo »

jpmoral wrote: post #79
G3n0t wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, "SWIFT" international bank transactions require up to 5 work days. Here in Germany, sending money from one bank to another still takes at least one up to three _work_ days. So in the worst case, you're wiring money to sb on Friday and he will receive it by Wednesday. Compare that to 10 minutes required by Bitcoin anywhere on the planet. Of course, there are special purpose banking products to accelerate transac…

In Australia, instant bank to bank transfers are free. And I always thought it was behind the rest of the world (except the US).

Surprisingly we’re often one of the first markets for new financial tech. Though we were behind for a while until Osko was adopted.

We’re getting mandated bank API access too, interestingly. Or we were. Dunno where that’s at now.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#84

Post by lifty »

jeltz wrote: post #25
octocop wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the way you used moderate. There is a reason that you did, and I think that is one of the reasons that bitcoin is thriving.

But we have moderate inflation in most countries so I do not see you point.

We do have moderate to low CPI inflation in western countries, but we also have high inequality and a young generation that doesn't have any assets. Now, if whether you call that inflation or not, the reality of the matter is that the cheap money situation we are in has led to this situation where we have rampant speculation in stocks, real-estate, crypto assets and any other form of limited supply assets. So I think Bitcoin and the crypto asset class, is here to stay, offering its own unique set of advantages and disadvantages.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#85

Post by lifty »

Gosper wrote: post #17

I have some reservations about Bitcoin but I understand it a heck of a lot better than the reporter interviewed here. That was painful to listen to and a stark reminder of Gell-Mann amnesia. The UK's FCA took the right step in banning consumer investments in crypto derivative products, which isn't remotely the same thing as purchasing the underlying assets without leverage. There's plenty more to nitpick about the si…

Very apt characterisation. It's sad that you got downvoted. I think Bitcoin has managed to stir such a division in people because it hits to the very core of human principles. This is wild speculation (pun intended) but I think that a higher percentage of people that grew in a high trust society find Bitcoin a scam/ponzi, while people that grew up in low trust societies think it's god's work. Different value systems leading do wildly different opinions.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#86

Post by geraldbauer »

emptysongglass wrote: post #43
geraldbauer wrote: post #20

Yes, Bitcoin is a ponzi (investment fraud). I collect the Best of Bitcoin is a ponzi articles @ https://openblockchains.github.io/bitcoin-ponzi Learn how the investment fraud works.

Isn't literally all of capitalism an enormous ponzi scheme? The older your money (i.e. the earlier you've held it and kept it) the richer you are. Younger people who have grown up after you now face a uphill battle because you the older person have capital you've accumulated earlier. I'd love to be corrected on this but as it is every value system humans participate in appear to be very pyramidal.

See https://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/bitcoin/2020-12-31-bitcoin...

Yes, you are wrong. The US dollar is not a ponzi. To quote from the Bitcoin is a Ponzi article:

National currencies too fail to fit the definition, because people do not "invest" in them with the expectation of gain. In fact, governments make their currencies slightly inflationary precisely to discourage hoarding.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#87

Post by gthaman »

skc wrote: post #78

I thought this would be a post referencing a recently infamous twitter thread on how Bitcoin is effectively a ponzi scheme https://twitter.com/smdiehl/status/1349307219318345728 Though I wish he hadn't disabled comments

The 'ponzi scheme' argument reeks of desperation when entire generations of Americans are going to witness the greatest ponzi scheme of all time, state sponsored social security, collapse.

Hey! look at this (maybe a) truck far off in the distance that might hit you while a different truck is 5 feet away from hitting you from behind.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#88

Post by tmarice »

G3n0t wrote: post #69
jpmoral wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, 10 minutes is not very fast. However, compare that to inter bank transactions and this number seems blazingly fast again Near instant bank transfers have been available in a lot of countries for many years now. Or did you mean something else?

Well, "SWIFT" international bank transactions require up to 5 work days. Here in Germany, sending money from one bank to another still takes at least one up to three _work_ days. So in the worst case, you're wiring money to sb on Friday and he will receive it by Wednesday. Compare that to 10 minutes required by Bitcoin anywhere on the planet. Of course, there are special purpose banking products to accelerate transac…

https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/be59a6bb09757ef4dec9ed7841...

$2M transfer costs $1. From/to anywhere in the world.

As a comparison, my freelance fees regularly came $13 short, and the only explanation was "interbank transfer charges". Plus the sender had to pay his own fees. And then my own bank would charge me ~$15 for accepting deposits from outside EU.

I'll take Bitcoin over the traditional banking cartel any day.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#89

Post by gthaman »

lifty wrote: post #84
jeltz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we have moderate inflation in most countries so I do not see you point.

We do have moderate to low CPI inflation in western countries, but we also have high inequality and a young generation that doesn't have any assets. Now, if whether you call that inflation or not, the reality of the matter is that the cheap money situation we are in has led to this situation where we have rampant speculation in stocks, real-estate, crypto assets and any other form of limited supply assets. So I think…

CPI is a cooked up government statistic, used in contracts and agreements (including social security) that unconditionally favors the governments position. For example it does not include energy or housing costs.

They also add and remove items from the CPI index, to remove ones that inflate and add ones such as consumer electronics that deflate.

Check out the chapwood index or a different unbiased inflation metric.

Re: Is Bitcoin a Scam?

#90

Post by emptysongglass »

geraldbauer wrote: post #86
emptysongglass wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't literally all of capitalism an enormous ponzi scheme? The older your money (i.e. the earlier you've held it and kept it) the richer you are. Younger people who have grown up after you now face a uphill battle because you the older person have capital you've accumulated earlier. I'd love to be corrected on this but as it is every value system humans participate in appear to be very pyramidal.

See https://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/bitcoin/2020-12-31-bitcoin... Yes, you are wrong. The US dollar is not a ponzi. To quote from the Bitcoin is a Ponzi article: National currencies too fail to fit the definition, because people do not "invest" in them with the expectation of gain. In fact, governments make their currencies slightly inflationary precisely to discourage hoarding.

I'm not sure we're on the same page here. You may not "invest" in a dollar with the expectation that that dollar will be worth more as 1 dollar than yesterday but people do "collect" money. Given a large enough collection, one can then use then use this as a backing store for other investment vehicles. The end result is the same: an aristocracy of old wealth at the top and the young clambering up their ever-taller ivory towers.
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