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Local rules instead of global censorship

redecentralize.org

111–120 of 221 posts

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#111
post #99
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a false dichotomy. Both can coexist.

nope, they cannot. in the real meaning of the words: capitalism protects unlimited capital accumulation and socialism forbids it. they are at odds. currently most nations have capitalism, often with some social policies in place (mainly to prevent uprisings).

That's a rather simplistic view of the matter.

They do coexist is most countries, just in different sectors. When a country collectively owns most of the healthcare means of production and protects it by law (e.g. by requiring emergency ambulances to go to public hospitals), how is that capitalism?

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#112
post #99
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a false dichotomy. Both can coexist.

nope, they cannot. in the real meaning of the words: capitalism protects unlimited capital accumulation and socialism forbids it. they are at odds. currently most nations have capitalism, often with some social policies in place (mainly to prevent uprisings).

I see this “mainly to prevent uprisings” idea asserted in lots of places but it strikes me as highly cynical. What’s the evidence this is the case? Even if a social policy was first introduced in response to uprisings, that doesn’t demonstrate that simply quelling the uprising was its sole purpose then, and it certainly doesn’t mean that’s the reason for its continued existence now

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#113
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workers owning the means of production.

That sounds a lot more socialist than just "remotely". According to Wikipedia, it's the defining characteristic of socialism.

If it doesn't meet this definition, I wouldn't call it socialist. Otherwise, the word socialism would lose its meaning. California having high taxes does not make it socialist. Austria having free education does not make it socialist.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be mentioned that Denmark, which has often been pointed to as an example of a successful socialist country is not socialist. The country's politicians vociferously protest against this label and going by Engels' own definition, the country is not at all socialist. It is extremely capitalist with classical hierarchies of business ownership. High tax, free healthcare and free schooling does not make a country…

So what does make a country even remotely socialist, in your opinion?

A textbook reformist democratic socialist policy would be giving employees a seat on the board of directors, or allocating some company shares of publicly traded companies to them.

If Bernie Sanders had his way[1] and this was implemented in the US, the country would become more socialist.

[1] https://berniesanders.com/issues/corporate-accountability-an...

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#115
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a false dichotomy. Both can coexist.

The central philosophy in capitalism is competition . The world is currently very acutely seeing the second and third order effects of such "winner takes all" philosophy, ranging from consumer-harming monopolies to environment-destroying profit-seeking. If we set socialism as an opposition to capitalism, it rises naturally to represent cooperation ; The idea that everyone is entitled to a base level of creature comfo…

No, you've described the caricature of capitalism that those opposed to it repeat to themselves to help justify their opposition. The central philosophy of capitalism is that voluntary trade leads, ultimately, to greater and more efficient production. That's not to say it's necessarily a straight line walk or that what is produced is necessarily pretty. Competition is a side effect that comes into play once you are producing something valuable to someone else willing to buy that something. It is a mechanism that keeps check on the bounds of prices and efficiency.

The real difference between capitalism and socialism is that capitalism requires voluntary action whereas socialism embraces compelled action. Socialist "cooperation" and "coming together to solve problems" are euphemisms for a politically powerful group to harness the productive output of the governed for its own purposes, without regard to if the perceived problems or the perceived solutions are real or not. Unless, of course, true socialist policy allows dissenters to opt-out of participation, in which case I withdraw my characterization. Assuming I'm right, I find the notion of "cooperate or else" far less appealing or moral than capitalism with all of the competition that comes with it.

Finally socialism doesn't eliminate competition... it only moves it from the marketplace to the seat of government. There is no grand collective, there is no "public good": there are individuals with differing beliefs, interests, and objectives. Once you put sufficient power in the government: the most ambitious individuals will compete for privileged positions within political movements rather than businesses, political movements will compete with alternative political movements for the reigns of government. Socialism doesn't remove fundamental human desires for prestige and power, it only redirects the energy into the mechanisms of state; and no that's not necessarily a benefit to the poor, or the underprivileged, or any other banner of victimization that you might fly to justify that state. The inability of a government program to fail means that the real world effectiveness any given government program (assuming that it's even a "right program") is secondary to its ability to attract political support. In capitalism, the voluntary aspect allows for failure if the business isn't producing the product efficiently or it isn't producing something that someone else actually wants or needs.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#116
post #58

I believe the premise of the title. But the main question should be: why? And the article does not really answer that, well beyond censorship. I think the reason why centralization is a danger to democracy, is because of lobbying. Lobbying is much easier in a centralized power structure. See how much lobbying goes on in and around the power centers of this world: DC, Brussels, London. Lobby is power for money, democr…

> I think the reason why centralization is a danger to democracy, is because of lobbying. Also to add, centralized political systems cannot be truly "democratic". The middle ages were far more democratic than our modern enlightened times. Canadian historian Francis Dupuis-Déri writing in the book "Démocratie: Histoire politique d’un mot aux États-Unis et en France": "During the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, thousa…

I have to disagree with such a broad statement covering a period of, what, 600 years. Neither do I agree with the premise that leaving small communities alone, not having the populace or these communities a say in larger affairs, and limiting access to te community decisions to a select few people to be more democratic than our current system.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#117
What we need is "diversity in unity and unity in diversity".

Let's take railroads for example: we want many constructors of rails and trains, but we want them to be interoperable - they need to agree on a common track standard. The internet - we want to have many independent websites, but they all need to use a common protocol in order to have wide reach. In politics we want multiple independent parties, but they should play fair with constitution and elections.

We need both the ability to centralize some aspects and diversify other aspects. For Google, FB and Twitter I'd like more diversity on the front end part - UI, personalisation of filtering and ranking, and on the user data storage part - portable user pods.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#118
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a false dichotomy. Both can coexist.

Both can coexist, but you can do it in a more capitalism or more socialist way. Take e.g. healthcare. You can have all private healthcare (capitalist), a public and private sector coexisting (mixed), or exclusively public provider (socialist). And that's just a sector. You can have socialist healthcare but capitalist manufacturing. Every economy is mixed, but it can balance to one side or the other. (btw, all modern…

That is an oversimplification. There is more defining Socialism than just healthcare. And having a solid social system in place is hardly a socialist thing.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#120
Counterpoint: Here in Germany there is relatively little centralization. For example, the government could not implement country wide corona measures, which in the end meant that much less was accomplished compared to centralized countries such as France. In France, one can just close borders and announce curfews. In Germany, such measures always end up as the minimum consensus between 16 states.

Frequently, federal politicians pursue policies beneficial for their home state. For example, the current government is dominated by Bavarian politicians, who channel funds and attention toward a state that is already doing well. Indeed this is likely to continue with the next chancellor being likely a right wing Bavarian.

By contrast, people from other states, especially ones with higher population like NRW, feel like they have little to none representation in a federal level. This gives an incentive to vote for opportunistic demagogues.

The same thing is probably happening on an EU level, where many people feel their local government has less power than before, but the EU institutions are dominated by countries with different interests. For someone from a relative minority, decentralization seems to be a one way street. If some countries do their own thing, then I would like my country to be separate entirely.

So I‘d say decentralization can also endanger democracy, as only complete separation can really be fair. In a centralized system, however, there is at least the chance that the central governance actually represents all of the population.

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