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Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

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Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#871
post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did claim > The real problem of the last few years is that really blatant lies have been remarkably successful in the "marketplace of ideas" and quite hard to effectively argue against so I think it's fair to point out that this is not in fact a new problem, and that private companies probably aren't going to solve it.

> so I think it's fair to point out that this is not in fact a new problem, and that private companies probably aren't going to solve it. The new problem is is not the successful spread of lies, but the frequent successful spread of lies at massive scale that fall apart at the slightest inspection. Basically: bonkers conspiracy theories becoming mainstream consensus in large segments of the population.

> bonkers conspiracy theories becoming mainstream consensus in large segments of the population.

I think the only new thing is "bonkers conspiracy theories", when beforehand it was more like "state sanctioned lies". Pick your poison, I guess?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#872
post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

If you are only for free speech if you find the speech tolerable, then you don't understand the concept or you are not for free speech.

Similarly, If you only support democracy if people vote the way you want, then you do not understand the concept of democracy or you do not support democracy because that is not what supporting democracy means.

There has been violent riots in the US all throughout 2020, I think they were bad, but I don't think for one moment the right solution was to prevent the people who attended them from being able to voice their opinions.

There were also claims that the 2016 election was fraudulent and illegitimate since 2016.

If you were okay with all of that, but just object to this because of the outcome, you should look at why.

It may be worth reading Public Opinion and Liberal Principles, Conjectures and Refutations, Chapter 17 by Karl Popper (https://pastebin.com/1JdawXUd)

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#873
post #837

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My best guess is that liberals stopped reading higher in the thread. I would hope that moderates and conservatives would not find those claims very credible, but perhaps they do or are not so offended as to downvote. I was personally fine with the integrity of the election right up until censorship ramped up. Now I have zero confidence that I would hear about any problems. I still don't think the election was "stolen…

What censorship? The president himself was saying the election was stolen from him for two months and that was basically the only thing the nightly news talked about (other than COVID) every day. At some point we should be able to say "Enough, evidence or GTFO," without being accused of silencing discussion. We're way past that point.

How is the video in Georgia debunked? They sent observers home (even a big newslet posted this on Twitter at that time), counted the ballots afterwards and Biden had a spike.

And btw I am from Germany, so I am on neither "camp".

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first instinct is to think, that you never believed in free speech in the first place, however I'd like to hear some examples of what shook you to the core.

Depends, are you setting the goalpost for "believing in free speech" as far as tolerating the President of the United States using social media for spreading the idea that the elections were stolen from him and that people should fight the results? Way before that you could see that people became radicalized by consuming conspiracy theories far, far faster than any individual or organization could pull them back to s…

If you have any evidence that Trump called for violence, come forward with it.

PS.: And also how Parler is responsible for any of this would be interesting.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans are far more ardent practitioners of religion: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-l .... No, that graph shows that Americans are far more Protestant. Weekly church attendance by Christians in Poland and the US are both 41% (actually another source shows ~55% attendance in Poland), given that Poland has comparatively more Christians, weekly attendance overall is higher too. Catholic…

> No, that graph shows that Americans are far more Protestant. Weekly church attendance in the U.S. is far higher than in Western Europe: https://www.pewforum.org/2018/06/13/how-religious-commitment... . The U.S. is at 36%. (That ranges from 21% in Vermont to 53% in Utah.) According to Pew, Germany is at 10%. France is at 12%. The U.S. is much closer to Turkey or Iran in religiosity by that measure than to Western Eu…

> Weekly church attendance in the U.S. is far higher than in Western Europe

Yes, but we were talking about western Europe, like Poland and Hungary.

> The U.S. isn't a "secular nation" either. The "Establishment Clause" prohibits Congress from establishing a national church, just like Article 137 of the Weimar Constitution in Germany

Yes, but we were talking about Poland and Hungary, not Germany. Poland and Hungary's constitutions establish national religious law. I would consider Germany to be secular, like the US, as opposed to Poland or Hungary, which are not.

> Justice Story made clear in 1830 that the constitution was not understood to prohibit non-preferential government support of religion

However, throughout the later 1800s, a majority of states (and nearly the nation as a whole) passed Blaine amendments, banning the use of public funds for private religious schools. Now this might have been driven in part by anti-catholic sentiment, but no, I don't think you can claim that the court adopting an interpretation that most states already had adopted was a "dramatic departure". Perhaps legally, but not in terms of popular support/understanding.

> particularly due to the Supreme Court taking various decisions on social issues away from the electorate, the laws in the U.S. with respect to churches, abortion, etc.

Right, and this is unambiguously a good thing. Laws shouldn't be based on religious ethics.

> And does that give us any insight into the current situation in the US?

Honestly, I don't see how it does. Trump's brand of populism isn't particularly religious. His appeal to the religious right wasn't much beyond "I'll appoint conservative judges". It's much more nationalist than religious (and I'll grant you that those two things are often intertwined, but that seems to be more because conservatives are often the ones stoking nationalist sentiment, and also they're usually more religious, I don't think religion necessitates nationalism).

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#876
post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this is also the beauty of free expression - it prevents anyone from using it to enact total control. Yeah, right up until you're talked into electing a dictator. It's just as well that's never happened!

And now he's out. The system's not about preemptively stopping theoretical bad acts per se (although if it actually stops real incoming threats, great), but rather, about being able to evaluate and change course when human fallibility inevitably leads to bad policies, bad choices, and bad outcomes. It's a work in progress, particularly as to how we can properly disincentivize future attempts and hold those who active…

You don't think USA achieved that by being the best ones? See for example history of relationships with Cuba, the same goes for pretty much everything, not only Cuba.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#877
post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

Free expression is chaotic. It always has been and it always will be. It will always have lies and misinformation, some people will even believe the lies. But this is also the beauty of free expression - it prevents anyone from using it to enact total control. Speech that is free will always seed doubt against ideas, regardless whether those ideas are true or false. It's an avenue that allows anything to be questione…

We're also waking up to the fact that free speech is an incredibly difficult ideal to uphold. Hate speech, fake speech, etc are testing the limits. Other ideals like religion are much easier to uphold in a mostly secular society until a new religion threatens the place of a dying incumbent. Really all these ideals are great when we're on the same page, until we aren't.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#878
post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my example the speech is not physically prohibited but it is illegal.

Right, but what we've seen in the last couple of weeks is speech being physically prohibited.

Yes and the argument some people are making is that the government and private companies should not be allowed to regulate speech.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> only have to win once. I disagree. If you notice with American politics both sides believe in strong dogmas. There is no middle ground. They both have made their beds and they will lay in it. Corporate Dems (control the Democratic Party) and the MAGA (control the GOP) have their own ecochambers. MSNBC, CNN, etc indoctrinate the Dems. Talk radio for the GOP. The two cults will continue to clash. I wonder if the peop…

I wonder if the people will wake up. The "wake up" approach doesn't seem to be working, but we do need some way of reforming our society around the idea of the mighty middle that is not represented by the extremes.

Or maybe a middle that's not dominated by dogma or ideologies. There's many pieces of truth located pretty far from the center of various political ideologies, but the ideologies taken as a whole also contain a stunning amount of falsehood and simplification.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#880
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what of the lies which led us into the Gulf War and the Iraq War? Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because of those lies, and they were broadcast from coast to coast by every credible news media organisation in existence. The same organisations now being lauded as the bearers of ultimate truth. When the next set of lies is rolled out to land us in another unending conflict, I would quite like the internet…

> And what of the lies which led us into the Gulf War and the Iraq War? Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because of those lies, and they were broadcast from coast to coast by every credible news media organisation in existence. The same organisations now being lauded as the bearers of ultimate truth. What "lie" led us into the Gulf War? Are you claiming that Iraq did not in fact invade and conquer Kuwait? And…

Truth will be unknown in any case, but free speech can at least expose lies as such, which can't be done in controlled propaganda.
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