Live data from Hacker News

Local rules instead of global censorship

redecentralize.org

61–70 of 221 posts

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#61
post #54
post #47

Centralised or de-centralised, why would make any difference? The lies are lies, if you don't have a centralised platform they will spread p2p as long as people can communicate. What we need is a mechanism for breaking circuits of lies and propaganda. In real world social networks we have methods like labelling liars(You have one identity and you risk it every time you say something), right to defend yourself(You can…

>What we need is a mechanism for breaking circuits of lies and propaganda. I think this is dangerous thinking, lies are bad but censorship is worse because someone has to decide what is a lie and what isn't, and that quickly becomes politicised. That never works out well. Since you mention Turkey, look at the current government's suppression of journalism. Freedom of expression must be protected as a legal right to m…

Why only censorship comes to mind? In fact, you can make it 0 censorship platform where the words of bad behaviour is actually preserved like a relic of the time, a proof, a historical record. An example for everyone to see who said what.

My way of thinking is that if someone mentions(even implies or dog whistles) someone else on a social network, the person subjected to the words should have an automatic right for a visible reply. A reply that everyone exposed to the original text is also exposed. Expand it to issues too. If there is an issue, let's say global warming or geology, the flat Earthers should be able to post a visible statement under the photo of Earth posted by NASA and climate scientists should be able to post a statement to climate change deniers content.

BTW, the media situation in Turkey is much more complicated than your mental model of censorship. The media is controlled through money, essentially the media owners get lucrative government contracts if they play nice with the government(an audio recording of a few real estate developers with connections to Erdogan discussing creation of a capital pool to buy out all the mainstream media was leaked. They bought all of it anyway and got into TOP10 contract winning firms in the world [0]) and the radicalised ones that only few care about are left alone as long as their reach is limited to the radicals. The police isn't chasing journalist as much as main stream journalism becoming non-existent and simply being a negotiation tool for people who fight for power. There's a new hope with Youtube journalism becoming mainstream but of course just recently Google was forced to create a local office to moderate the Turkish content. The government introduced advertisement ban on media that doesn't have a local office to respond to government requests.

[0] https://ipa.news/2018/12/30/turkeys-pro-government-construct...

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#62
post #54
post #47

Centralised or de-centralised, why would make any difference? The lies are lies, if you don't have a centralised platform they will spread p2p as long as people can communicate. What we need is a mechanism for breaking circuits of lies and propaganda. In real world social networks we have methods like labelling liars(You have one identity and you risk it every time you say something), right to defend yourself(You can…

>What we need is a mechanism for breaking circuits of lies and propaganda. I think this is dangerous thinking, lies are bad but censorship is worse because someone has to decide what is a lie and what isn't, and that quickly becomes politicised. That never works out well. Since you mention Turkey, look at the current government's suppression of journalism. Freedom of expression must be protected as a legal right to m…

> I think this is dangerous thinking, lies are bad but censorship is worse because someone has to decide what is a lie and what isn't, and that quickly becomes politicised.

Thing is first step would be to teach people again critical thinking and what the difference is between objective facts and opinions. Furthermore, something I am missing in this discussion and in general is that the concept of responsibility is lost. Sure you are allowed to say anything you like, but that does not mean there are no consequences.

In the analog world we have libel laws and some limitations on speech ( incite violence, endanger others ). For example in Germany it is straight up illegal to deny the holocaust. We as a society have decided that this is the correct decision for that instance to ensure that it won't repeat itself in some form or another in the future.

Other 'speech' laws in germany make verbally insulting others fineable, because human dignity is the fundamental principle of the German constitution. Article 1, paragraph 1 reads: "Human dignity is inviolable. To respect and protect it is the duty of all state authority." Human dignity is thus mentioned even before the right to life.

Anyways what I am trying to say is that just as in chemistry actions will have reactions. Therefore, speech should have consequences. Ironically, republicans have preached over the years that everybody should be responsible for themselves and their actions, and not rely on others but when it is about consequences of speech they are silent.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#63
post #58

I believe the premise of the title. But the main question should be: why? And the article does not really answer that, well beyond censorship. I think the reason why centralization is a danger to democracy, is because of lobbying. Lobbying is much easier in a centralized power structure. See how much lobbying goes on in and around the power centers of this world: DC, Brussels, London. Lobby is power for money, democr…

Which might be measured as the proportion of wealth owned by the wealthiest few, and the rest of the peoples. It's like a majority attack, on one side of wealth, on another of votes.

While the combined wealth of all voters exceeds that of the few lobbyists, in theory votes should win.

It's good to recall that democracy didn't come about in a vaccuum; It came about to displace monarchy. Because democracy is "fair", the aristocrats are among us with at least as much power as any of the rest of us.

The greater the wealth disparity, however, the more power they can purchase by bribing the poor politicians. Which in turn begs the masses to pay politicians well enough that corruption becomes at best unnecessary. The only remaining cure for greed is transparency, accountability, and journalism.

Therefore it is in the wealthy elite's interest to lobby for laws that erode any established amounts of the aforementioned qualities, steadily inching the power structures towards secrecy, carte blanche, and censorship.

Can you think of any government agency that has such powers? I'm thinking of several, and most of them are in the US. Capitalism is allergic to wealth redistribution, which is the true name for the action that begins to solve the issue. The only question is: How much?

One practical example is speeding tickets. AFAIK in the US speeding tickets are flat fees. So a wealthy person barely cares about speeding in traffic. In Finland, a more socialist republic, speeding tickets are proportional to income. So a wealthy person speeding will feel the hurt. Every so often some asshole with a Ferrari gets a million dollar speeding ticket. (possibly exaggerated, don't recall exact amounts)

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#64
post #51

I think this is a very compelling point, and much better than most of the "fediverse is for freedom" talking points I have seen on HN: > I have participated in many a public forum on Internet governance, and whenever anyone pointed out that social platforms like Facebook need to do more as far as content moderation is concerned, Facebook would complain that it’s difficult in their huge network, since regulation and c…

I agree with your assertion. And I would add a bit on the "content moderation is difficult" argument.

The current state of content moderation - or lack thereof - on these platforms didn't happen by accident. It's the direct consequence of their business model.

If you create a digital space and you host millions of people, you will also pull in the fraught complexity of human relationships. The digital space isn't free from the same challenges regarding governance of communities you'd encounter in the physical world.

However, the businesses that provide the infrastructure and engineering that underpins digital spaces aren't in the "building communities" business. They are selling advertising and business intelligence. Which is a very different proposition.

As such, the very design of the large platforms never quite incorporated proper tooling that models the complexities of (self) governing millions of people in a central digital space. On the contrary.

Recommendation engines - people who you know, people to follow, this might interest you as well, this article was shared x times,... - do the exact opposite. They have helped shape emerging social dynamics which are spilling over in the real world, with real world consequences, creating social feedback loops that escape control.

Rather then acknowledging this fundamental issue, these centralized platforms assumed that they could solve this through centralized content filtering, or through centralized human moderation teams which have to follow company policies. Which is an incredibly difficult proposition considering the amount of digital data produced daily by billions of people.

So, why did they chose this type of content moderation? Because the social issues that stem from these platforms are seen as an expense which ought to be externalized. There's only an incentive to invest in content moderation to the point where the issues caused by the people they host are threatening the performance of the business model.

In that regard, I think that a "social media market" were platforms provide affordances for equitable (self)governance of communities involves a fundamental reflection/reshaping/rethinking/overhaul of the business models and business incentives that underpin such a market.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#66
post #58

I believe the premise of the title. But the main question should be: why? And the article does not really answer that, well beyond censorship. I think the reason why centralization is a danger to democracy, is because of lobbying. Lobbying is much easier in a centralized power structure. See how much lobbying goes on in and around the power centers of this world: DC, Brussels, London. Lobby is power for money, democr…

Lobbying isn't easier in a centralised power structure. When Amazon wanted favours from municipal governments, it held a competition to get them to lobby themselves to cut taxes and bend rules to earn the patronage of the corporation that was bigger and richer and more important than them.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#67
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What we need is a mechanism for breaking circuits of lies and propaganda. I think this is dangerous thinking, lies are bad but censorship is worse because someone has to decide what is a lie and what isn't, and that quickly becomes politicised. That never works out well. Since you mention Turkey, look at the current government's suppression of journalism. Freedom of expression must be protected as a legal right to m…

> I think this is dangerous thinking, lies are bad but censorship is worse because someone has to decide what is a lie and what isn't, and that quickly becomes politicised. Thing is first step would be to teach people again critical thinking and what the difference is between objective facts and opinions. Furthermore, something I am missing in this discussion and in general is that the concept of responsibility is lo…

Oh sure, education has a vital role. It always bemuses me how bad education and health care seem to be in the US. It's like a left winger's parody of how bad these things would be in a capitalist system, except they really are like that. It's the main reason I fully support the public systems here in the UK even though I'm a full blooded capitalist and life long Conservative voter. If it ain't broke...

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#68

For the same reason, smallish countries seem to be much more democratic and closer to the people (e.g., Switzerland). The "sweet spot" seems to be between 5 and 10 million people maybe?

Politicians would rather run a large country though so they tend to push for centralization.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#69
post #58

I believe the premise of the title. But the main question should be: why? And the article does not really answer that, well beyond censorship. I think the reason why centralization is a danger to democracy, is because of lobbying. Lobbying is much easier in a centralized power structure. See how much lobbying goes on in and around the power centers of this world: DC, Brussels, London. Lobby is power for money, democr…

Which might be measured as the proportion of wealth owned by the wealthiest few, and the rest of the peoples. It's like a majority attack , on one side of wealth, on another of votes. While the combined wealth of all voters exceeds that of the few lobbyists, in theory votes should win. It's good to recall that democracy didn't come about in a vaccuum; It came about to displace monarchy. Because democracy is "fair", t…

Calling Finland socialist invalidates your whole post.

Re: Local rules instead of global censorship

#70
TL;DR: Centralization is a danger to democracy because we can more effectively silence people if we have decentralization.

Too bad the deplatforming did not stop the insurrection at the US Capitol. But I'm sure if you just do it harder it will work.

Post reply on HN