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Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

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Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#571

A portion of your citizens were called to storm your nations capital by a President who refuses to accept the results of a democratic election. The very foundation of your democracy has been eroded. Do not pretend the people who are frightened of these actions are overreacting. Democracy is a fragile thing, and you have a portion of your population who attempted to take a hammer to it. Don't pretend this is a narrati…

Your first paragraph and second paragraph cannot both be true at the same time. Trump never called for people to storm the capitol. He did, however, show a disasterous level of negligence that arguably was criminal by not taking steps to prevent it, since it was obviously being planned.

If I’m wrong, I will happily retract my claim if you can provide a quote telling his supporters to storm the capitol, not march to the capitol and remain peaceful, which is what I believe he did say. (And, my understanding is the violence was already underway at this point.) Given your claim to be basing your opinion entirely on his own words and not media narratives finding evidence to prove your claim should be trivial.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#572
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The very foundation of your democracy has been eroded. That would be a crappy democracy if it could be eroded by a bunch of idiots taking an unauthorized Whitehouse tour. Fortunately, absolutely nothing happened to the democracy and it proceeded on its course. What could actually erode the democracy is nation giving up on free speech. That'd be a real sign of nation in severe distress. > I don't listen to your news…

First: Perhaps you'd be willing to agree that this was an explicit attempt at a soft coup: The explicit goal was to disrupt congressional proceedings as part of a plan to overturn election results. Second: As others have observed, we got extremely lucky that the rioters didn't actually come in contact with any congress-people or the vice president. What do you think would have happened if, say the crowd has come in c…

>The explicit goal was to disrupt congressional proceedings as part of a plan to overturn election results.

And then what? Once the mob was cleared out, they would have resumed. There's a chasm between disrupting proceedings and actually taking over a country. The latter also almost always involved having control of the military by the way.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#573
post #257

That is the most depressing part for me - how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals. Turns out they don't have to be threatened with overwhelming force. They don't need to be threatened with death, starvation or torture. They don't need to be threatened by economic ruin or untold suffering. No, the richest and most safe civilization ever existed on the face of the planet is ready to gi…

This is possibly the most perfect response I've ever read on HN...hits the nail ON the head. People need to clear their heads, forget politics for a second, and put some more thought into this.

I'm literally dumbstruck as to how so many intelligent people aren't able to comprehend the importance of the bigger picture here. And if you try to have a rational & zoomed-out conversation, they insist on zooming-in on small-picture partisan details which exist on a foundation of misrepresented/skewed/artificially framed information.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#574
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why you need an educated populace. By educated, we mean one that can think critically and independently rather than a college credential.

We’ve got one of the most educated populations in the world. Europe is only recently catching up to is in e.g. the percentage of people with college degrees.

College degrees are not a relevant metric. What percentage of the population are being taught fundamental critical thinking skills? How many are taught how to evaluate the quality of data and the quality of sources? How many people have a good grounding of statistics? Or civics? Or logical fallacies? How many people can describe the scientific method?

I don't have many vivid memories of my primary school education but one of them was being taught how to be suspicious of claims made in advertisements. That one class stuck with me for a long time. (This was in Melbourne, Australia sometime around 1988.)

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#575
post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was idiot rioters just like we had over the summer. Not some well planned out attempt to actually overthrow the govt. It was a disrespectful day and they did accomplish that.

At least these rioters showed up at the right place. Breaking into the capital was beyond dumb, but it makes a lot more sense than breaking into a Gucci store.

I think that the right place to protest to the government would be at a government building (such as the capitol) rather than a Gucci store.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My suggestion that governments shouldn't rely on third-parties for their infra, didn't go down well with HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25639520

Working for a third party that provides govt infra, we/my org see it as a license to print money and an opportunity to lock govt in. Really perverse incentives.

> we/my org see it as a license to print money and an opportunity to lock govt in. Really perverse incentives.

That's so fucking wrong, but I bet the government continually falls for this trap.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#577
post #257

That is the most depressing part for me - how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals. Turns out they don't have to be threatened with overwhelming force. They don't need to be threatened with death, starvation or torture. They don't need to be threatened by economic ruin or untold suffering. No, the richest and most safe civilization ever existed on the face of the planet is ready to gi…

Easily?

Sorry, but that wasn't all that easily, and there are still plenty of people for whom the coin hasn't dropped. Ideals are easy to keep when they aren't being challenged. Then, when they are being challenged and suddenly all those absolute positions don't look so comfortable anymore what are you going to do?

People wouldn't mind risking terrorism, childporn and ordinary crime. But what if the price of free speech absolutism was democracy itself?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you articulate a plausible (does not rely on significant speculation or hypotheticals) series of events at the Capitol incident that could have resulted in democracy being legitimately lost in America? I am unable to come up with one.

This is an obviously impossible burden to load on someone, and I think you know that. If democracy is legitimately lost in America, it will happen via a series of events that we today cannot conceive of. It is more useful to think events like the Capitol incident as causing long-lasting damage to democracy, and there is a non-negligible possibility that societal schisms will widen, as opposed to heal. What that will…

> This is an obviously impossible burden to load on someone, and I think you know that.

Oh yes, I very much do know that, it is why I asked the question.

> If democracy is legitimately lost in America, it will happen via a series of events that we today cannot conceive of.

I don't know about that, it depends on the level of precision you would require in predictions. That the future is unknown, and causation is extremely complex, are kind of my regular talking points, for which I am downvoted to negatives on quite literally every single post I make on this website.

The reason I ask difficult questions that cut through rhetoric (or "load impossible burdens on" people who engage in rhetoric), is because I actually take these matters seriously. This isn't a game, not entirely at least. The situation at the US Capitol is "a big deal" in my books, and but one of a very long string of big deals. Others proclaim to share this belief. And yet, if they are asked to speak truthfully and precisely, free of rhetoric and framing, they can't bring themselves to do it. There seem to be very few people who are willing or able to respond to simple but precise questions, to state their beliefs in unambiguous and unequivocal terms.

You don't put a man on the moon with vagueness and rhetoric, you do it with precise measurement and conformity to reality. Rhetoric can get you a very long ways in politics, but eventually Mother nature will prevent you with a bill for the party. It seems to me that we are nearing that point. It may take another decade or two, but we will pay for our actions, eventually.

> It is more useful to think events like the Capitol incident as causing long-lasting damage to democracy

I'm open to the idea, I really am. I hear all sorts of people making this claim, but very little of the supporting reasoning.

Perhaps starting with a definition of the phrase "damage to democracy" would be a good idea. I have no idea what that means.

> and there is a non-negligible possibility that societal schisms will widen, as opposed to heal. What that will look like in the future is anybody's guess.

Yes indeed! The societal schisms sure have widened because of this, and it was utterly predictable. That a large group of angry, extremist Trump supporters was on its way that day was very well known. And yet for some unknown reason, security was incredibly light that day. Was this an unfortunate oversight? Maybe. Maybe not. Will this be seriously investigated, or will it get the standard circus of rhetoric in the press? We shall see what happens, and we shall see if anyone cares if a proper investigation, that truly seeks The Truth, is performed.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#579
post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some members of the mob were actively looking to kill the people who were 2nd and 3rd in line for the presidency. Let's not pretend that there was zero danger to democracy. Do you realize that numerous times throughout history people have successfully killed the actual president and it didn't end democracy? What these people did was a serious crime and it should absolutely be prosecuted to the full extent of the la…

Your description of democracy is on the nose, but that's exactly why I think it's reasonable to be concerned. One of the critical values that makes democracy work is the peaceful transition of power, and if there'd been just a bit more violence, it would be impossible to maintain even a polite fiction that this transition was peaceful.

We've still survived worse. The civil war comes to mind (although in some ways, current tensions are an extension of that conflict).

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#580
post #571

A portion of your citizens were called to storm your nations capital by a President who refuses to accept the results of a democratic election. The very foundation of your democracy has been eroded. Do not pretend the people who are frightened of these actions are overreacting. Democracy is a fragile thing, and you have a portion of your population who attempted to take a hammer to it. Don't pretend this is a narrati…

Your first paragraph and second paragraph cannot both be true at the same time. Trump never called for people to storm the capitol. He did, however, show a disasterous level of negligence that arguably was criminal by not taking steps to prevent it, since it was obviously being planned. If I’m wrong, I will happily retract my claim if you can provide a quote telling his supporters to storm the capitol, not march to t…

> Trump never called for people to storm the capitol.

Did he do so literally and overtly, no.

Was his call to march to the Capitol and give courage to members allied with his cause and prevent a failure of courage taken that way, and intended to be? Certainly, quite a number of the people who engaged in the riot claimed to do so at his direction, and “will no one rid me of this troublesome priest” style direction from leaders is not exactly a novel concept.

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