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Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

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Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#341

Post by clarkmoody »

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

The "experiment" is not one of free speech but of ever-increasing state power. The benefits of control and the costs of losing it are growing ever-larger, so each side will fight harder to get the power. Politics got us here. Voting got us here. It will not get us out.

Now that the social media companies have played the card of deplatforming the ideological opposition, the power structure of the establishment will expect that behavior going forward. When the pendulum swings, you might find some of the now-loud voices being silenced.

We can't rely on "the right guy" holding that much power, since power corrupts. There will be no "healing" until the power of the central government declines, unless you think we should start building the Gulags / re-education camps to simply silence the wrong-thinkers.

But what should you do?

Keep building tools to empower the individual against the surveillance apparatus of the state and of giant corporations! Build in ways to communicate even if large ISPs start blocking your traffic or are taken offline. Build ways to transfer value between users to circumvent financial censorship. Technology can overcome the dystopia that we face, since politics does not offer any hope of a better tomorrow.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#342

Post by forgetfulness »

antibuddy wrote: post #128
lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

My first instinct is to think, that you never believed in free speech in the first place, however I'd like to hear some examples of what shook you to the core.

Depends, are you setting the goalpost for "believing in free speech" as far as tolerating the President of the United States using social media for spreading the idea that the elections were stolen from him and that people should fight the results?

Way before that you could see that people became radicalized by consuming conspiracy theories far, far faster than any individual or organization could pull them back to sanity.

There's people making a living out of spreading dangerous lies to millions and millions spend their waking hours consuming them and not researching the opposite, the culmination was an abortive coup on the US Capitol, in between literally hundreds of thousands died in a pandemic where whole geographical regions were convinced that it was a hoax and that attempts to control it were a power grab.

If that's too little for you to accept someone's faith in unhindered free speech to be shaken, well, hard to find an angle to argue from, it's a hard absolute you're presenting.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#343

Post by smsm42 »

boxed wrote: post #333
smsm42 wrote: post #257

That is the most depressing part for me - how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals. Turns out they don't have to be threatened with overwhelming force. They don't need to be threatened with death, starvation or torture. They don't need to be threatened by economic ruin or untold suffering. No, the richest and most safe civilization ever existed on the face of the planet is ready to gi…

The US is the richest only on average, and not the safest by an stretch of the imagination.

Which civilization in history was safer? Tell me you criterion of safety and your example, let's see if I need to be corrected.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#344

Post by dfgdghdf »

grecy wrote: post #213
dfgdghdf wrote: post #176

Here's how I might open a debate with right-leaning people about freedom of speech. If you sell a product, but make false claims about that product, then you are committing fraud. You have harmed someone (financially) with your speech, and contract laws rightly overrule freedom of speech here. So, if you believe in contract law, which is essential for free markets, then you must believe in limitations on speech... th…

Your example is an interesting one, because I think it just shows there are consequences for certain types of speech, but that speech is still very much possible. Kind of like how I can park without feeding the meter, and the "consequences" are just tickets. At no point can my license be revoked if I always pay all the tickets. So getting back to your analogy, if I use speech to make false claims about a product I wi…

In my example the speech is not physically prohibited but it is illegal.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#345

Post by xupybd »

joshuamorton wrote: post #319
smsm42 wrote: post #257

That is the most depressing part for me - how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals. Turns out they don't have to be threatened with overwhelming force. They don't need to be threatened with death, starvation or torture. They don't need to be threatened by economic ruin or untold suffering. No, the richest and most safe civilization ever existed on the face of the planet is ready to gi…

On the other hand, I'm amazed by how easily people are handwaving away what was a hairs breath from the murder and kidnapping of multiple elected officials, not to mention constitutional crisis/breakdown. > TV and Twitter that told them there was an "insurrection" It meets the definition though. There seems to be a lack of willingness to acknowledge an attempted coup as a coup, or a failed insurrection as an insurrec…

I tend to call a failed murder attempted murder. I think the distinction is important due to the difference in outcomes. One someone is dead the other does not result in death.

I think insurrection and coups are similar. One you have a toppled government the other you do not.

Things aren't that bad. I really small number of people did something stupid. The country is divided and has some healing to do but it's not over yet.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#346

Post by notatoad »

smsm42 wrote: post #257

That is the most depressing part for me - how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals. Turns out they don't have to be threatened with overwhelming force. They don't need to be threatened with death, starvation or torture. They don't need to be threatened by economic ruin or untold suffering. No, the richest and most safe civilization ever existed on the face of the planet is ready to gi…

> how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals.

This has always been the great lie behind the American concept of "freedom". At some point, one group's freedom starts to impinge on on another group's freedon, and you have to decide who gets the freedom and who doesnt. Unrestricted freedom for everybody is a fallacy that sounds good on campaign posters but ends up with somebody's freedom being ignored.

Do you think the freedom to say whatever you want on Twitter is more important? Or is a private companies' freedom to define how their platforms are used more important?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#347

Post by systemvoltage »

PradeetPatel wrote: post #328
lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

You can still be a champion of free speech without tolerating hate speech. In fact, one may even say that deplatforming hate will achieve a greater level of free speech - due to the lack of misinformation and violent ideologies.

I think we need free speech with intellectual discourse. You can discuss Fascism and its properties, drawbacks and advantages but with intellectual rigor.

Social media is not forcing people to do so with 160 characters and instagram stories. Giving people the power to broadcast is going to be the worst idea ever of any kind in human history.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#348

Post by myWindoonn »

haberman wrote: post #303
myWindoonn wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To what end are you arguing? Do you honestly think that the 6th Amendment will be repealed, or that strict scrutiny will suddenly not be applied when appropriate? (I suspect that this entire comment thread was started in order to try to pull a rhetorical gotcha, and you didn't actually expect somebody to respond to your words as written, but hopefully you've learned some constitutional law on this beautiful sunny MLK…

How is it a "rhetorical gotcha" to ask what it would look like to consistently apply a proposed principle or law? Equal protection under the law is also a constitutional principle (I knew that one already, thanks), but it seems in short supply in much of modern thinking and advocacy. The first question somebody should ask when advocating some kind of measure aimed at their adversaries is: what would it look like if t…

I agree entirely with your point. I think, however, that there's something of a false equivalence: It is not the case that the tweets which are inciting violence are coming from all political believers in equal share.

We don't get "longstanding liberal principles" by publishing our speech on a private corporate platform. Freedom of speech and due process are merits of the law and not of Twitter's terms of service. Twitter is free to ban all incitements to violence without banning all hyperbolic political speech.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#349

Post by giantg2 »

babesh wrote: post #321
anonymousDan wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, lies and propaganda only have to win once.

Nope. As long as there is potential for other powers to grow or counteract it, you have a chance to course correct. Isn’t that what a vote is good for?

I think it ends up being the pendulum swinging farther to the other side than really correcting whenever we see a switch.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#350

Post by skulk »

smsm42 wrote: post #257

That is the most depressing part for me - how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals. Turns out they don't have to be threatened with overwhelming force. They don't need to be threatened with death, starvation or torture. They don't need to be threatened by economic ruin or untold suffering. No, the richest and most safe civilization ever existed on the face of the planet is ready to gi…

what you miss in your whole comment, and what the parent should have mentioned is unprecedented interconnectedness. That's the core problem, not freedom of expression.

We don't know how to deal with such a fully connected social network, but we jumped right into it and are dealing with the fallout.

Should we place limits on global megaphones? I think so. But how to do it in the most utilitarian way? I dunno.

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