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Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

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Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#201

Post by glogla »

jmull wrote: post #115
ardy42 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think free speech ends at specific threats or calls to violence. Call me the n word all you want. But if you threaten my life you should be stopped. Either by the police or by me. Then what about lies? The real problem of the last few years is that really blatant lies have been remarkably successful in the "marketplace of ideas" and quite hard to effectively argue against (if you disagree, try using facts and rea…

We do have some limits on lies. There are libel/slander laws. These limits are usually very weak, though. They vary from place to place, but tend to have a high bar, are expensive to pursue, and have many exceptions.

Those don't cover other dangerous types of lies, like telling people drinking bleach will protect them from COVID, or telling them COVID is a hoax and they shouldn't wear masks, or the whole antivax thing.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#202

Post by raarts »

lisper wrote: post #70
millzlane wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think free speech ends at specific threats or calls to violence. Call me the n word all you want. But if you threaten my life you should be stopped. Either by the police or by me. I think free speech is necessary, but not free speech to harass or threaten violence. Free speech including the vile and negative won't make the world a better place. Arguing against the bad ideas will. But I do not think it's the burden…

> Call me the n word all you want. But if you threaten my life you should be stopped. Are you actually black? Because if you were I would think that you of all people would understand that calling someone (let's not mince words here) a nigger is threatening their life. The problem is not so much if I call you a nigger as if I say to my friend bubba, "Hey, what do you think we oughtta do 'bout that uppity nigger over…

I'm not convinced calling someone the n-word is the same as threatening his life for that reason.

So MAGA fan would be the same as the n-word, because I can tell my Bubba hey what are we going to do about the MAGA fanboy over there.

Is that threatening his life too?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#203

Post by [deleted] »

ardy42 wrote: post #93
millzlane wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think free speech ends at specific threats or calls to violence. Call me the n word all you want. But if you threaten my life you should be stopped. Either by the police or by me. I think free speech is necessary, but not free speech to harass or threaten violence. Free speech including the vile and negative won't make the world a better place. Arguing against the bad ideas will. But I do not think it's the burden…

> I think free speech ends at specific threats or calls to violence. Call me the n word all you want. But if you threaten my life you should be stopped. Either by the police or by me. Then what about lies? The real problem of the last few years is that really blatant lies have been remarkably successful in the "marketplace of ideas" and quite hard to effectively argue against (if you disagree, try using facts and rea…

[deleted]

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#204

Post by pstuart »

jimmydorry wrote: post #172
pstuart wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a stupid gesture on her part and she paid a step price for that act, so it wasn't so free. When talking about the riots that happened it important to acknowledge all the players. Most of the protesters against police brutality were peaceful and exercising first amendment rights of the first degree -- complaining about government abuses. There are recorded cases of agents provocateur, e.g., https://www.startrib…

She posted it again with impunity, so it basically was free, seeing as she was not deplatformed after the first or second time doing it.

She lost a lot of work over it -- therefore she did pay a price.

As stupid and tasteless as it was, to make it into a call for others to cut off his head is specious at best. And that's a key issue in play: the intent of the the message.

You're engaging in weak whataboutism.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#205

Post by lliamander »

dfgdghdf wrote: post #176

Here's how I might open a debate with right-leaning people about freedom of speech. If you sell a product, but make false claims about that product, then you are committing fraud. You have harmed someone (financially) with your speech, and contract laws rightly overrule freedom of speech here. So, if you believe in contract law, which is essential for free markets, then you must believe in limitations on speech... th…

There are principled exceptions to freedom of speech that are generally easy to identify and agree upon. I think there may be reasonable concerns about Parler's willingness or ability to police illegal speech online, but the stated reason for deplatforming is a farce.

They reference things like the capitol riot, but if I recall correctly the actual storming of the capitol was planned (to the extent that it was a planned affair) one FaceBook. There's lots of things shared on FaceBook and Twitter that are bad (and even illegal) but they don't get the boot from their service providers - and Twitter is an Amazon customer as well!

And the fact that Twitter is a big Amazon customer should not be ignored. It could be that Amazon's motivation was primarily political, but protecting the interests of one of their largest customers should not be ignored.

But regardless, the real key here is that Amazon blatantly violated their contract. No company bets their business on a hosting service that does not provide protection against spontaneous cancellation of service.

Even if Amazon wins the lawsuit, the message to all to all of their customers will be "we can turn you off at any time and for any reason". Expect to see a lot of migrations to other providers if that happens.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#206

Post by jimmygrapes »

dlp211 wrote: post #152
goatinaboat wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, the Hunter Biden story was actively suppressed on both Twitter and Facebook, essentially confirming long-held beliefs that social media platforms curate based on political ideology. I don’t think anyone can in good faith deny that if Don Trump Jr had allegedly done one-tenth of what Hunter Biden is accused of, the media would have it on 24/7 rotation.

Yes, because doing something and being accused of something don't meet the same bar of evidence. Meanwhile, the Trump and children have been a Masterclass of nepotism and corruption. Let me know when one of Biden's children become an Aide to the President or put in charge of pandemic response, middle east peace, federal government reform, or the dozen other things Javanka was put in charge of despite being absolutely…

Not gonna disagree too much because the nepotism bothered me too, but you absolutely cannot deny the progress Jared Kushner made in his role of coordinating ME peace agreements.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#207

Post by AnthonyMouse »

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

> I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place.

I've gone completely the other way. At one point my thinking was that private companies running these platforms weren't a problem as long as there wasn't a monopoly. So government censorship is a problem (monopoly on force), Apple and Google are a problem (duopoly / two "regional" monopolies) but there is no reason to criticize Twitter for removing anything because they actually have competitors.

Recent events have led me to believe that removing central control from the distribution of information is an imperative.

Because having more alternatives only matters if the alternatives are actually different. Uniform obsequiousness to the party about to be in control of the government isn't a marketplace of ideas.

If I want to try to be ideologically consistent, there is still an antitrust argument to make. Uniform behavior when the alternative would attract a large contingent of users implies collusion, or government censorship via capitulation to some not so veiled threats from legislators. But one way or another this is a threat to democracy.

MSNBC is now arguing that Comcast et al should stop carrying Fox News. Comcast is the parent company of MSNBC.

The answer has to be disintermediation. Which also solves the real problem, which is centralized platforms purposely promoting controversial content to increase engagement. QAnon came from Facebook, not Parler.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#208

Post by alwayseasy »

edbob wrote: post #155
alwayseasy wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst-case scenario is the end of democracy in the USA in the next 15 years. If one side stays convinced the elections were fraudulent and Trump is a victim , it will cause a permanent shift in how Americans see their own democratic elections. Historically, since democracy has existed, that vacuum is always filled by an authoritarian leader.

Nothing will pour more gas on that fire than censorship. I basically agree with your analysis on that point, and I'm resentful of Trump for helping to create that problem. But I consider big tech censorship to be the first step to an inevitable end of democracy, "destroying it in order to save it".

It's a really hard problem because the "anti-censorship" argument is also used by the side that wants to destroy democracy once in power.

Historically, Americans have succeeded at destroying ideologies by grossly impeding on free speech and other constitutional rights when there was political will.

Currently, I'm not sure there is a sign of political will to restore democratic norms by suppressing white-supremacism.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#209

Post by nullifidian »

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

Trump has lost the election in the end - the market place of ideas has worked. Establishment prevented the coup -- representative democracy has worked. No need to change anything. Maybe force the 1st amendment on the big tech when an account is verified as non-anonymous.

Also the so called "existential threat" is the result of serious internal issues in the country. (changing demographics, the deindustrialization by the international capital with a tacit agreement of the establishment, the chasm between values of the educated class and the rest of the country)

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#210

Post by cccc4all »

amelius wrote: post #199
cccc4all wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always question everything you are told, especially by central authorities, mainstream popular media, etc. Seek out information from variety of sources and discern the truth from fiction. What you may think is evidence may be completely opposite of what it actually is. Especially any narratives that are pushed to convince people to voluntarily give up privacy and freedoms. Just look at all the regular people going ar…

> Always question everything you are told, especially by central authorities, mainstream popular media, etc. This is how conspiracy theories start.

May I ask your definition of "conspiracy theory"?
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