Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers • Hacker News Board

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#101

Post by tshaddox » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #100

tshaddox wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble is when people conflate “free speech” with “absolute prohibition on any societal, cultural, or personal means of making any value judgment about any speech, as well as any mechanism whatsoever to encourage any type of speech and discourage any other type of speech.” It’s this “speech agnosticism” version of “free speech” that worries me.

> The trouble is when people conflate “free speech” with “absolute prohibition on any societal, cultural, or personal means of making any value judgment about any speech, as well as any mechanism whatsoever to encourage any type of speech and discourage any other type of speech.” It’s this “speech agnosticism” version of “free speech” that worries me. And that "speech agnosticism", ironically, is actually a rejection…

That’s how I’ve come to think about it too. Free speech is vital to allow ideas to be expressed and criticized, in the same way that the methods of science are about conjecture and criticism. The ability to challenge orthodoxy is vital in science, but so is rejection of “bad science” and even more so rejection of the notion that there can be no discernment of any qualities of scientific claims.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#102

Post by MikeUt » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

myWindoonn wrote: post #99

MikeUt wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope the judge in my trial will be as charitable in their interpretation of my words, as you are to Reza Aslan's.

Sure; they'd probably apply strict scrutiny [0]. In the USA, speech is typically protected by default ; the burden of proof is on the prosecution to show that the speech was harmful. Seriously, have you never heard an angry American yell that they are frustrated with the status quo and would like to "burn it down" [1]? It is a common refrain and generally taken as a hyperbolic statement about the speaker's dissatisfa…

You're discussing law as it currently stands, while the original poster proposed changing the law.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#103

Post by edbob » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

What is "a credible existential threat to civilization" to you? The recent riots seem to be more than adequately handled through existing law enforcement procedures. Obviously the police can't prevent every crime, but in this case investigation and prosecution seems to be enough to remove bad actors. We know what the consequences of free speech are, and even if the downsides are amplified 1000x by its enemies, the downsides are still manageable by existing institutions.

What are the known consequences of not having free speech? Is there a large country where this hasn't resulted in the death and/or oppression of millions? Even Mao's China had the Cultural Revolution, which was more destructive than the BLM and Capitol riots combined. Clearly not having free speech prevents neither civil unrest nor insurrection against the lawful authorities.

If you're looking for a dream solution where the world becomes great, than free speech will never get you there. You will probably be attracted to the unproven promises of some ideology or another due to lack of alternatives. If you're looking for a comparison of real-world consequences where one imperfect solution outperforms another, then so far free speech has yet to produce a Holocaust, a Holodomor, or a Three Years of Great Famine. The lack of free speech has.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#104

Post by lisper » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 7:07 PM UTC

edbob wrote: post #103

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

What is "a credible existential threat to civilization" to you? The recent riots seem to be more than adequately handled through existing law enforcement procedures. Obviously the police can't prevent every crime, but in this case investigation and prosecution seems to be enough to remove bad actors. We know what the consequences of free speech are, and even if the downsides are amplified 1000x by its enemies, the do…

> What is "a credible existential threat to civilization" to you?

For example: a delusional or demagogic leader who promulgates lies about the outcome of an election in order to fire up a mob and incite them to attempt to violently take over the seat of government of a country with nuclear weapons.

Not that such a thing would ever actually happen. I guess I'm just a worrier.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#105

Post by edbob » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #104

edbob wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "a credible existential threat to civilization" to you? The recent riots seem to be more than adequately handled through existing law enforcement procedures. Obviously the police can't prevent every crime, but in this case investigation and prosecution seems to be enough to remove bad actors. We know what the consequences of free speech are, and even if the downsides are amplified 1000x by its enemies, the do…

> What is "a credible existential threat to civilization" to you? For example: a delusional or demagogic leader who promulgates lies about the outcome of an election in order to fire up a mob and incite them to attempt to violently take over the seat of government of a country with nuclear weapons. Not that such a thing would ever actually happen. I guess I'm just a worrier.

What's the worst-case scenario if they had succeeded? That they take some people hostage and have a stand-off until the FBI takes them down? There was no path to them attaining any actual power. Their actions were violent and bad, but had no actual effect on anybody outside of D.C. That is not what I call an "existential threat".

Again, you have to compare the downsides of free speech vs the downsides of censorship. If you only look at the cons of free speech, then of course you will hate it. But if you compare one impotent riot to the tens of millions dead as a result of suppression, then free speech seems much more valuable.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#106

Post by baggy_trough » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

edbob wrote: post #105

lisper wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is "a credible existential threat to civilization" to you? For example: a delusional or demagogic leader who promulgates lies about the outcome of an election in order to fire up a mob and incite them to attempt to violently take over the seat of government of a country with nuclear weapons. Not that such a thing would ever actually happen. I guess I'm just a worrier.

What's the worst-case scenario if they had succeeded? That they take some people hostage and have a stand-off until the FBI takes them down? There was no path to them attaining any actual power. Their actions were violent and bad, but had no actual effect on anybody outside of D.C. That is not what I call an "existential threat". Again, you have to compare the downsides of free speech vs the downsides of censorship.…

I would think assassinations.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#107

Post by lisper » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

edbob wrote: post #105

lisper wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is "a credible existential threat to civilization" to you? For example: a delusional or demagogic leader who promulgates lies about the outcome of an election in order to fire up a mob and incite them to attempt to violently take over the seat of government of a country with nuclear weapons. Not that such a thing would ever actually happen. I guess I'm just a worrier.

What's the worst-case scenario if they had succeeded? That they take some people hostage and have a stand-off until the FBI takes them down? There was no path to them attaining any actual power. Their actions were violent and bad, but had no actual effect on anybody outside of D.C. That is not what I call an "existential threat". Again, you have to compare the downsides of free speech vs the downsides of censorship.…

> There was no path to them attaining any actual power.

They currently have actual power. Their leader is currently the president of the United States. For the next 48 hours he could nuke Tehran if he wanted to.

And what actually happened is far from the worst-case scenario. Imagine a comparable mob, but well organized, and armed with assault rifles. That was (and remains) a real possibility.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#108

Post by edbob » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

baggy_trough wrote: post #106

edbob wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the worst-case scenario if they had succeeded? That they take some people hostage and have a stand-off until the FBI takes them down? There was no path to them attaining any actual power. Their actions were violent and bad, but had no actual effect on anybody outside of D.C. That is not what I call an "existential threat". Again, you have to compare the downsides of free speech vs the downsides of censorship.…

I would think assassinations.

That would be very bad if it happened, although existing institutions proved sufficient to prevent this.

Still, we've had many assassinations in our history, often at the presidential level. None of them were "existential threats". They were all handled by existing institutions and did not require throwing out our core values.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#109

Post by edbob » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #107

edbob wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the worst-case scenario if they had succeeded? That they take some people hostage and have a stand-off until the FBI takes them down? There was no path to them attaining any actual power. Their actions were violent and bad, but had no actual effect on anybody outside of D.C. That is not what I call an "existential threat". Again, you have to compare the downsides of free speech vs the downsides of censorship.…

> There was no path to them attaining any actual power. They currently have actual power. Their leader is currently the president of the United States. For the next 48 hours he could nuke Tehran if he wanted to. And what actually happened is far from the worst-case scenario. Imagine a comparable mob, but well organized, and armed with assault rifles. That was (and remains) a real possibility.

You seem determined to focus only on the worst possible hypothetical downsides and not consider anything else. Of course in this case free speech will prove to be an evil that must be eliminated. You win.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#110

Post by mrstone » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 8:18 PM UTC

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #87

mrstone wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with this - why is freedom of speech even coming up? You couldn't say this stuff in real life on a street corner, why should it be protected online?

>I completely agree with this - why is freedom of speech even coming up? You couldn't say this stuff in real life on a street corner, why should it be protected online? Because the platform was not 100% about violence. Do you think it would be impossible to find threats of violence on twitter? How many twitter accounts say "kill trump" as their name? https://twitter.com/kill_trump_rn Finding examples of threats of vi…

Yeah I think the difference is that twitter will take action against people who issue credible threats. Parler explicitly did not, in the name of "free speech".