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Show HN: Compare prices that US hospitals charge patients, insurance companies

turquoise.health

171–180 of 389 posts

Re: Show HN: Compare prices that US hospitals charge patients, insurance companies

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And by "current" administration you mean the Trump administration because people here don't like to give credit where credit is due.

I mean, we can discuss how much credit and where it's due, but I'm pretty sure "current administration", on a given date, makes it kinda apparent?

I think the idea is that the poster wants people aware that at least once in his administration Trump has done something remotely correct.

Of course the fact that he did this after spending 3 years trying his damndest to gut our already mediocre public healthcare system makes it a bit of a eye roller, but you know, even a broken clock is right and all that.

Re: Show HN: Compare prices that US hospitals charge patients, insurance companies

#172
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe any medical professional in Germany has wage exceeding 150k EUR yearly after taxes - doctors in the US sometimes have multiples of that, coincidentally 5x to 10x more is not unusual.

Just throwing some data, average general practice doctor is 150k$ in US vs 61k$ in germany. https://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Physician_%2F_Docto... https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Physician_%2F_Docto...

That’s a terrible source, $150k is laughable for the US. Maybe for a part time doctor working 2 or 3 days a week.

This is more accurate:

https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2020-compensation-overvie...

Re: Show HN: Compare prices that US hospitals charge patients, insurance companies

#174
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. There's a good breakdown that compares what drives healthcare spending between the US vs Germany (and others). https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/what-drives-health... The vast majority of the difference comes from just the raw cost of inpatient and outpatient care. Even if you were to completely zero out the administrative costs per capita, you'd hardly make a dent in bridging the gap.

This is useful - as a starting point. I want to be able to make a case for a single payer system in the U.S., but I think to be effective it's a comparison of costs and outcomes that needs to be had. In the data linked above, we're told that the 'inpatient and outpatient care' is significantly higher than in 'comparable countries.' I believe it. But isn't 'inpatient and outpatient care' just about .. everything that…

You're right that it's a useful starting point, but I think that it's even more complicated than "single payer is better".

First of all, it isn't obvious that single payer is the best system, because there are many countries in the world that have exemplary health care systems that are not "single payer". You cited Germany as an example, but Germany doesn't have a single payer system, it has a public-private mix. It's a universal multi-payer system. Netherlands has a purely private universal healthcare system, Switzerland has a purely private universal healthcare system, Australia has a public-private mix (44% choose private), Singapore has universal catastrophic coverage but everything else is driven by savings accounts and private insurance among the upper-middle class, etc etc — Belgium, South Korea (technically "single payer" but only covers 60% of costs, private insurance fills in the gaps), Japan, etc.

From where I sit, the most apples-to-apples A/B test of single-public-payer vs private insurance is actually being run in the US, as we speak. When you turn 65, you have the option to enroll either in "Original Medicare", which is what we usually think of when we talk about "single payer healthcare in America", or you can enroll in Medicare Advantage (aka Medicare "Part C"), where the premiums that would go to the CMS instead go to private insurers like Humana, United, Oscar Health, Aetna, Clover, etc. These plans replace Original Medicare, also cover Part D prescription drug benefits, and often include supplemental benefits that Original Medicare doesn't already cover. There are some interesting findings so far:

- 39% of Medicare beneficiaries are on private Medicare Advantage plans instead of the public "Original Medicare". Because everyone is entitled to "Original Medicare", this is purely voluntary. This number has been growing so rapidly, that we expect by 2025, more seniors to be on a private plan than the public one. There's also great variance by State. In Florida, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota, Oregon, Alabama, Hawaii, and Connecticut — nearly 50% of beneficiaries are on Medicare Advantage. By 2022, we expect more seniors in those States to be on a private plan than a public one. https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brief/a-dozen-facts-about...

- For most beneficiaries, Medicare Advantage costs about 39% less than Original Medicare. https://healthpayerintelligence.com/news/medicare-advantage-...

- Medicare Advantage plans are, on average, of higher quality than the public "Original Medicare" https://healthpayerintelligence.com/news/medicare-advantage-...

- In Urban areas, Medicare Advantage costs less per capita to administer than Medicare — and that's not including the extra Medicare Part D insurance that you would have to buy if you're on the Original Medicare plan. https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2... From this same research, public "Original Medicare" is still cheaper in rural areas, but not by a whole lot.

So to make things more complicated, we're not just talking about whether "Medicare For All" is better than the status quo, we also need to litigate if private-insurance driven "Medicare Advantage For All", is even better.

Re: Show HN: Compare prices that US hospitals charge patients, insurance companies

#175
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people are missing one key difference. Healthcare in EU is based on solidarity system where every citizen pays a percentage share of his monthly salary to the medical insurance. So if you earn more, then you will also pay more medical insurance - but you will get the same treatment as others (unless you have some fancy private insurance on top of the regular insurance). So basically any medical expen…

This is how progressive taxation works. For some reason, US people happily pay for police, firemen, infrastructure or the military as a necessity of a functioning society but have serious problems considering healthcare in the same group.

County level vs national level

Re: Show HN: Compare prices that US hospitals charge patients, insurance companies

#176

Looking at some of the prices, I can't help but think how great an incentive it is to be healthy in the US. "Health is wealth" if it applies anywhere it is in the US. I have taken extra measures to ensure that myself and my family are healthy in the last year and with a tax-free HSA account that is invested into ETFs, I am literally printing dollars just by following basic principles of being healthy.

Health privilege becomes a thing when access to healthcare becomes a barrier. I know the word ”privilege” is quite radioactive.

I was sick often as a kid and after finding a diagnosis I’ve been performing well among my age peers. Thank you Finnish healthcare. Couldn’t imagine how much it sets you back cognitively to have health issues as well as financial issues burdening your mind 24/7. Completely avoidable pain and suffering purely for profit.

Re: Show HN: Compare prices that US hospitals charge patients, insurance companies

#177

It's always fascinating to see that even compared to prices you pay as a self-paying patient in Germany (which are already 1.5x - 2x higher than what the "public" insurances, ie. 85% of the population, pay for the same procedures), the prices in the US are about 5x to 10x higher. The standard of care seems to be quite comparable if you look at outcomes, so there must be huge inefficiences in the American system (doct…

There's some kind of monopoly going on too: https://www.cbsnews.com/video/why-it-costs-so-much-more-to-d...

Re: Show HN: Compare prices that US hospitals charge patients, insurance companies

#178

It's always fascinating to see that even compared to prices you pay as a self-paying patient in Germany (which are already 1.5x - 2x higher than what the "public" insurances, ie. 85% of the population, pay for the same procedures), the prices in the US are about 5x to 10x higher. The standard of care seems to be quite comparable if you look at outcomes, so there must be huge inefficiences in the American system (doct…

Before coming to any conclusions on this topic, I highly suggest reading this extremely in-depth analysis on cross-country healthcare spending.[1]

The simple answer is that Americans really do consume significantly more healthcare than Europeans. The most straightforward signature of this is the fact that a much higher proportion of Americans work in the healthcare industry than any other large country. The US also tends to consistently lead on the highest utilization of cutting-edge technology (such as ICDs, insulin infusion pumps, linear accelerators, and small bowel transplant) at any given time.

Cost per inpatient discharge is exactly in line with a regression of European countries against average household disposable income. (The US having nearly double the household disposable income as Western Europe.) Rather than being some signature of American dysfunction, globally we observe hospital bills rising super-linearly with income levels. This strongly suggests that hospital costs primarily rise because of higher intensity of care per encounter.

The strongest counterpoint to this is that despite America's high healthcare consumption, that health outcomes are significantly worse than Europe. In particular in terms of life expectancy. But healthcare economists have known for decades that medicine, on the margin, has virtually zero impact on health.[2] The US is an extremely unhealthy country, especially because of obesity. No level of healthcare would ever be able to counteract that.

But again this disjointed relation between medicine and health is not an American-specific phenomenon. The ratio of healthcare spending between Norway and Spain is about the same as between the US and Norway. Yet Spaniards enjoys significantly longer life expectancies than their Norwegian counterparts.

[1]https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/why-conventional-wisdom-o...

[2]https://www.cato-unbound.org/2007/09/10/robin-hanson/cut-med...

Re: Show HN: Compare prices that US hospitals charge patients, insurance companies

#179
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. There's a good breakdown that compares what drives healthcare spending between the US vs Germany (and others). https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/what-drives-health... The vast majority of the difference comes from just the raw cost of inpatient and outpatient care. Even if you were to completely zero out the administrative costs per capita, you'd hardly make a dent in bridging the gap.

This is useful - as a starting point. I want to be able to make a case for a single payer system in the U.S., but I think to be effective it's a comparison of costs and outcomes that needs to be had. In the data linked above, we're told that the 'inpatient and outpatient care' is significantly higher than in 'comparable countries.' I believe it. But isn't 'inpatient and outpatient care' just about .. everything that…

> (the latter two have long waits for essential surgeries compared to the U.S.)

References?

Re: Show HN: Compare prices that US hospitals charge patients, insurance companies

#180

This is made possible thanks to the current administration’s CMS price transparency rule which went into effect Jan 1,2021 http://www.cms.gov/hospital-price-transparency Edit: By “current” I mean the Trump administration.

Out of curiosity, how much will this reduce the cost of health care? The idea, as it's been explained to me, is that visibility into the cost of medical care will result in downward price pressure. How much?

Transparent pricing enabling the comparison of pricing between different sellers is only one piece of a functioning marketplace. You also need multiple informed sellers and multiple informed buyers.
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