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Safari 14 added WebExtensions support, so where are the extensions?

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Re: Safari 14 added WebExtensions support, so where are the extensions?

#201

Post by _qulr »

Glench wrote: post #196
nubela wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with browsers is that it is hard to monetize unless you go down some shady rabbithole. So exactly how are you going to make money and make your first million dollars?

It's actually not that hard to monetize browser extensions, and I think this is changing as the quality of extensions gets better — people are more willing to pay for software that solves their problems, regardless of the format. Here's an extension that makes $38k / month! https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/187-jordan-oconnor-of-c... And here's one that made at least $100k: https://www.indiehackers.com/product/css…

> It's actually not that hard to monetize browser extensions

It's actually not that hard to become a billionaire [points at some billionaires]

By the way, here are some stats on Chrome extensions: https://www.debugbear.com/blog/counting-chrome-extensions

Re: Safari 14 added WebExtensions support, so where are the extensions?

#202

Post by Glench »

floatingatoll wrote: post #30

The most popular web extensions are those that deprive sites of direct and indirect revenue, which necessarily means they can’t charge for the service or their userbase would revolt and steal their rule sets (which is easy to do for a web extension). Having to pay money for such things goes against the grain of those users, and the sort of breakage that people think is acceptable for content blockers isn’t quite as a…

There are plenty of quality paid extensions:

* Closet Tools makes $38k/month: https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/187-jordan-oconnor-of-c... * CSS Scan made over $100k: https://www.indiehackers.com/product/css-scan/100-000-in-rev... * Spider made $10k in two months: https://www.amie-chen.com/blog/making-paid-extension/

Re: Safari 14 added WebExtensions support, so where are the extensions?

#203

Post by Glench »

_qulr wrote: post #201
Glench wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually not that hard to monetize browser extensions, and I think this is changing as the quality of extensions gets better — people are more willing to pay for software that solves their problems, regardless of the format. Here's an extension that makes $38k / month! https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/187-jordan-oconnor-of-c... And here's one that made at least $100k: https://www.indiehackers.com/product/css…

> It's actually not that hard to monetize browser extensions It's actually not that hard to become a billionaire [points at some billionaires] By the way, here are some stats on Chrome extensions: https://www.debugbear.com/blog/counting-chrome-extensions

Not a really fair reply. I was pointing out that there's nothing inherently hard about monetizing extensions and you definitely don't have to "go down some shady rabbithole" to do it. The services to charge for extensions exist and all that really matters is providing value, which as you're pointing out, can be hard.

Re: Safari 14 added WebExtensions support, so where are the extensions?

#204

Post by _qulr »

Glench wrote: post #203
_qulr wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's actually not that hard to monetize browser extensions It's actually not that hard to become a billionaire [points at some billionaires] By the way, here are some stats on Chrome extensions: https://www.debugbear.com/blog/counting-chrome-extensions

Not a really fair reply. I was pointing out that there's nothing inherently hard about monetizing extensions and you definitely don't have to "go down some shady rabbithole" to do it. The services to charge for extensions exist and all that really matters is providing value, which as you're pointing out, can be hard.

> there's nothing inherently hard about monetizing extensions

Over 95% of Chrome extensions are completely free, as in no form of payment whatsoever. This makes extensions one of the worst of all software markets. Users just expect extensions to be free.

Also, the browsers vendors themselves can make it difficult to monetize extensions. Firefox eliminated its extension store several years ago, and Google is eliminating Chrome Web Store payments next month. If anything, the Mac App Store is now the easiest place to monetize extensions IMO.

Re: Safari 14 added WebExtensions support, so where are the extensions?

#205

Post by robenkleene »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #198
robenkleene wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that the Mac developer community was hollowed out by mandatory Sandboxing in the Mac App Store, introduced in 2011, not by the iPhone (2007). Sketch, arguably the most successful third-party Mac-only app since OS X, was released in 2010, several years after the iPhone, but almost immediately before mandatory sandboxing. I believe the reason sandboxing destroyed the Mac software ecosystem is because it's too…

Sketch is an interesting one, gained so much traction for having a superior interface but after several years in the lead it's getting devoured by a cross platform web app with superior collaboration.

It's relevant that has also been essentially 10 years of stagnation on the frameworks that Sketch is built on, i.e., AppKit, as Apple focuses on UIKit. In this case specifically Apple hasn't added best-in-class collaboration features to AppKit (or UIKit). I'm not sure whether it would have made a difference in Sketch vs. Figma, but the fact that they haven't has made it difficult for Sketch to compete, as Sketch's MO is leveraging Apple's built-in technologies.

Re: Safari 14 added WebExtensions support, so where are the extensions?

#206

Post by Glench »

_qulr wrote: post #204
Glench wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a really fair reply. I was pointing out that there's nothing inherently hard about monetizing extensions and you definitely don't have to "go down some shady rabbithole" to do it. The services to charge for extensions exist and all that really matters is providing value, which as you're pointing out, can be hard.

> there's nothing inherently hard about monetizing extensions Over 95% of Chrome extensions are completely free, as in no form of payment whatsoever. This makes extensions one of the worst of all software markets. Users just expect extensions to be free. Also, the browsers vendors themselves can make it difficult to monetize extensions. Firefox eliminated its extension store several years ago, and Google is eliminati…

> Over 95% of Chrome extensions are completely free, as in no form of payment whatsoever. This makes extensions one of the worst of all software markets. Users just expect extensions to be free.

Most Chrome extensions are low quality, too! But to me that just means there's a lot of opportunity. I've seen enough paid extensions succeeding (I can send more links if you're interested) that I'm readily convinced the market isn't that bad at all, and it will only get better as people encounter more quality extensions that provide enough value to pay for.

> Also, the browsers vendors themselves can make it difficult to monetize extensions. Firefox eliminated its extension store several years ago, and Google is eliminating Chrome Web Store payments next month. If anything, the Mac App Store is now the easiest place to monetize extensions IMO.

Yeah, it's annoying that neither Google of Firefox stores have easy payments — it makes taking payments less accessible for developers. But obviously it's still possible to roll your own payments or using things like my own https://extensionpay.com

Re: Safari 14 added WebExtensions support, so where are the extensions?

#207

Post by freediver »

kosinus wrote: post #173
freediver wrote: post #27

We are working on a new native macOS browser based on Webkit with native web extension API support built in. We have uBlock origin and many others extensions working already. By doing this we get best of both worlds - performance and energy use of Webkit and extensions from chrome/firefox. Screenshot: https://ibb.co/7V8sfyX We are open for beta testers. Please email me if interested with short background and area of…

How are you tackling all the missing / private APIs in Cocoa WebKit? Stuff like location, fullscreen, WebRTC, etc.

We exposed private headers using private module map.

Re: Safari 14 added WebExtensions support, so where are the extensions?

#208

Post by _qulr »

Glench wrote: post #206
_qulr wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's nothing inherently hard about monetizing extensions Over 95% of Chrome extensions are completely free, as in no form of payment whatsoever. This makes extensions one of the worst of all software markets. Users just expect extensions to be free. Also, the browsers vendors themselves can make it difficult to monetize extensions. Firefox eliminated its extension store several years ago, and Google is eliminati…

> Over 95% of Chrome extensions are completely free, as in no form of payment whatsoever. This makes extensions one of the worst of all software markets. Users just expect extensions to be free. Most Chrome extensions are low quality, too! But to me that just means there's a lot of opportunity. I've seen enough paid extensions succeeding (I can send more links if you're interested) that I'm readily convinced the mark…

> Yeah, it's annoying that neither Google of Firefox stores have easy payments — it makes taking payments less accessible for developers. But obviously it's still possible to roll your own payments or using things like my own https://extensionpay.com

That's cool. I may look into this. Do you have a list of extensions using the service?

Re: Safari 14 added WebExtensions support, so where are the extensions?

#209

Post by kitsunesoba »

robenkleene wrote: post #172
panic wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All three of those developers started writing Mac software (or NeXT software, in Omni's case) in the 80's and 90's, before Xcode or the Apple Developer Program. The wider Mac developer community was hollowed out by the iPhone in the late 2000's-early 2010's and never really recovered. Who is starting a Mac-only software shop in 2021?

I'd argue that the Mac developer community was hollowed out by mandatory Sandboxing in the Mac App Store, introduced in 2011, not by the iPhone (2007). Sketch, arguably the most successful third-party Mac-only app since OS X, was released in 2010, several years after the iPhone, but almost immediately before mandatory sandboxing. I believe the reason sandboxing destroyed the Mac software ecosystem is because it's too…

On one hand I think macOS sandboxing can be a bit too restrictive and buggy, but on the other I think it's somewhat unreasonable for developers to continue to expect unfettered access as a given on the desktop, because it's been proven time and time again that unfettered access will be abused, often by big companies that users tend to implicitly grant a higher level of trust to.

Re: Safari 14 added WebExtensions support, so where are the extensions?

#210

Post by robenkleene »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #209
robenkleene wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that the Mac developer community was hollowed out by mandatory Sandboxing in the Mac App Store, introduced in 2011, not by the iPhone (2007). Sketch, arguably the most successful third-party Mac-only app since OS X, was released in 2010, several years after the iPhone, but almost immediately before mandatory sandboxing. I believe the reason sandboxing destroyed the Mac software ecosystem is because it's too…

On one hand I think macOS sandboxing can be a bit too restrictive and buggy, but on the other I think it's somewhat unreasonable for developers to continue to expect unfettered access as a given on the desktop, because it's been proven time and time again that unfettered access will be abused, often by big companies that users tend to implicitly grant a higher level of trust to.

I agree 100% in principle, the problem is Mac App Store apps compete with non-Mac App Store apps that have unfettered access, and macOS itself competes with other OSes where unfettered access is expected.

So while I agree in principle, in practice the real result is Mac App Store apps are just getting utterly destroyed in the marketplace, it's truly a slaughter as I've cataloged here (https://blog.robenkleene.com/2019/08/07/apples-app-stores-ha...).

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