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Many scientists citing two scandalous Covid-19 papers ignore their retractions

sciencemag.org

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Re: Many scientists citing two scandalous Covid-19 papers ignore their retractions

#41
post #39
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just repeated the same thoughts in an even more condescending way and still didn’t explain why they’re wrong. It’s so odd that top level comment would be flagged.

On the contrary. The reply is a clear explanation of why the ad hominem accusation makes no sense. The initial comment was rightfully flagged because it either ignores the bad and unscientific nature of the attacks on the paper.

No. The replies don't address a single scientific point whatsoever, instead distracting with irrelevancies like attacking the English of the authors (which is plenty good enough), claiming the PCR test is "fine" when it's obviously nowhere even close to fine for the purposes it's being used for, and writing off things like the evident lack of review as a minor unimportant thing.

It's a classic example of desperately trying to shoot the messengers and tboyd47 is correct to say it doesn't belong here. His post was flagged simply because he's another messenger and thus is getting shot - it obviously has nothing to do with the politeness or quality of his posts.

Re: Many scientists citing two scandalous Covid-19 papers ignore their retractions

#42
Easy to explain: politics.

Amongst scientists everybody ignored those political papers, just as the many political models with doomsday predictions (also Lancet). They understand the need for politicians to be inaccurate and unscientific. Within the covid-19 community most flaws in preprint papers were immediately pointed out, but you could not blog about without loosing your job (Trump), but nevertheless news magazines still published the worst nonsense.

Re: Many scientists citing two scandalous Covid-19 papers ignore their retractions

#43
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a historian cites Mein Kampf, they're using it as a primary source - they might not agree with the opinions expressed within but they do believe Hitler expressed those opinions. If a historian cited a work that turned out to be a forgery, and did not acknowledge in their paper that it was a forgery, then their paper would certainly be suspect. True citing a retracted paper is not automatically 100% unacceptable, b…

> If a historian cites Mein Kampf, they're using it as a primary source - they might not agree with the opinions expressed within but they do believe Hitler expressed those opinions. Yes... same as a scientist uses citations. Citing someone doesn't mean 'I fully believe and support this person', it means 'I'm referring to what this person said' and they believe that's what the paper said. That's all. The text using t…

You've completely missed what I was saying. A historian doesn't cite Mein Kampf to give context to what they're saying, the historian uses Mein Kampf as data. For a historian, Mein Kampf is perfectly valid data. On the other hand, Mein Kampf 2: Meiner Kampfer is not valid data, and any paper citing it as if it were should be immediately considered suspect. A scientist citing a retracted paper is like a historian citing a forgery: fine if it's a harmless aside, catastrophic if their claims hinge upon its reliability.

Re: Many scientists citing two scandalous Covid-19 papers ignore their retractions

#44
post #41
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary. The reply is a clear explanation of why the ad hominem accusation makes no sense. The initial comment was rightfully flagged because it either ignores the bad and unscientific nature of the attacks on the paper.

No. The replies don't address a single scientific point whatsoever, instead distracting with irrelevancies like attacking the English of the authors (which is plenty good enough), claiming the PCR test is "fine" when it's obviously nowhere even close to fine for the purposes it's being used for, and writing off things like the evident lack of review as a minor unimportant thing. It's a classic example of desperately…

> No. The replies don't address a single scientific point whatsoever

The reply actually addresses all the points.

* It provides an objective description of the test, supported by primary sources.

* Provides a description of the sources of criticism that were referred to in the initial statement.

* Describes the nature and quality of the criticism.

* Allows you to check that the papers under attack were not retracted, which is the testament to the scientific substance of said attacks.

* More importantly, raises the attention to the fact that there are far more test procedures nowadays which, even if we took the complains at face value, render them null.

There's a radical fringe which for some unexplained reason are both radically anti-science and heavily invested in trying to produce and use fraudulent pseudo-scientific work to attack scientific findings they find politically inconvenient, as a kind of Trojan horse based on appeals to authority.

Re: Many scientists citing two scandalous Covid-19 papers ignore their retractions

#45

A couple of years ago I had an idea how to solve this issue. IMO blocchain technology could be actually a solution for such a problem, where one publications cryptographic hash consists of the content of the publication and the cryptographic hashes of it's citations. If a citation get's invalidated for whatever reason, papers citing it would automatically get invalidated too, and so on. Until someone fixes or removes…

I guess everyone is down on blockchain ideas but this seems cool.

Re: Many scientists citing two scandalous Covid-19 papers ignore their retractions

#46
post #44
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The replies don't address a single scientific point whatsoever, instead distracting with irrelevancies like attacking the English of the authors (which is plenty good enough), claiming the PCR test is "fine" when it's obviously nowhere even close to fine for the purposes it's being used for, and writing off things like the evident lack of review as a minor unimportant thing. It's a classic example of desperately…

> No. The replies don't address a single scientific point whatsoever The reply actually addresses all the points. * It provides an objective description of the test, supported by primary sources. * Provides a description of the sources of criticism that were referred to in the initial statement. * Describes the nature and quality of the criticism. * Allows you to check that the papers under attack were not retracted,…

None of those points are convincing.

Firstly, lack of retraction does not imply quality. I've read papers about COVID that were not merely wrong but deliberatively deceptive, and they haven't been retracted. Public health research just has a huge problem with bad papers, and it's not one they're admitting to.

Secondly, have you actually read the criticisms? A big part of it is that the Drosten protocol appears to have been published via a journal that he himself controls, hence the 24 hour submission-to-publication turnaround time. Obviously if that is true the paper will never be retracted, thus using lack of retraction as a way to attack the critics is circular; the non-independence of the publication path is itself a part of their criticism.

Thirdly, I read the criticism. A few things were indeed quibbly and didn't seem that important, others were not good but perhaps understandable if you make allowances for extreme speed. Other criticisms were highly substantive. But this may depend on your pre-existing value system. A critical problem with PCR testing is the way the people behind it appear to consider false positives either non-existent or entirely free: it's clear that everything about these testing programmes is designed to maximize positive results at all costs. They're terrified of false negatives but don't care about FPs at all. That isn't excusable.

Finally, w.r.t. "more test procedures", they all seem to have very similar reliability problems that are dismissed with circular logic of the form, "COVID is anyone who tests positive, therefore there are no false positives" or "A PCR positive means it detected RNA, and PCR is the most sensitive way to detect RNA, therefore if RNA is present you get a PCR positive, therefore the test works fine", all of which is entirely blind to the way it's being used in the real world.

There's a radical fringe which for some unexplained reason are both radically anti-science and heavily invested in trying to produce and use fraudulent pseudo-scientific work to attack scientific findings they find politically inconvenient, as a kind of Trojan horse based on appeals to authority

Yes, that fringe is called the public health establishment.

Re: Many scientists citing two scandalous Covid-19 papers ignore their retractions

#47
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a historian cites Mein Kampf, they're using it as a primary source - they might not agree with the opinions expressed within but they do believe Hitler expressed those opinions. Yes... same as a scientist uses citations. Citing someone doesn't mean 'I fully believe and support this person', it means 'I'm referring to what this person said' and they believe that's what the paper said. That's all. The text using t…

You've completely missed what I was saying. A historian doesn't cite Mein Kampf to give context to what they're saying, the historian uses Mein Kampf as data. For a historian, Mein Kampf is perfectly valid data. On the other hand, Mein Kampf 2: Meiner Kampfer is not valid data, and any paper citing it as if it were should be immediately considered suspect. A scientist citing a retracted paper is like a historian citi…

> the historian uses Mein Kampf as data

So... the same way that a scientist could cite a retracted paper. To say that these people said this thing and then it was retracted. To discuss the context of that retraction and what it means, and so on.

Re: Many scientists citing two scandalous Covid-19 papers ignore their retractions

#48
post #46
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. The replies don't address a single scientific point whatsoever The reply actually addresses all the points. * It provides an objective description of the test, supported by primary sources. * Provides a description of the sources of criticism that were referred to in the initial statement. * Describes the nature and quality of the criticism. * Allows you to check that the papers under attack were not retracted,…

None of those points are convincing. Firstly, lack of retraction does not imply quality. I've read papers about COVID that were not merely wrong but deliberatively deceptive, and they haven't been retracted. Public health research just has a huge problem with bad papers, and it's not one they're admitting to. Secondly, have you actually read the criticisms? A big part of it is that the Drosten protocol appears to hav…

Sad, but true. We're not anti-science. HN is one place where I'm quite sure everyone loves science. What we are is aware that the establishment entrusted with interpreting science has gone completely off the rails, and it has nothing to do with red vs. blue.
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