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Signal Is Back

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Re: Signal Is Back

#141

Post by xster »

rglullis wrote: post #104
yorwba wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. Let them put their "regime change" money into generally useful infrastructure like Signal instead of propaganda for their favorite rebel group or some other narrow political goal.

Signal runs on AWS with the excuse that if a state actor decided to block Signal by blocking IPs, they would have to block all of AWS. It all sounds fine, until we are reminded that AWS itself blocked Parler, no chance of recourse and completely within the law. With that in mind, how confident are you to think that CIA's support of Signal goes as far as they can ensure they can control the network?

And since the first in the thread asked about money, which is an important question, Amazon has a 600 million dollar CIA contract before counting the billions in IC contracts this year to big tech. That's more than double what Bezos paid for the whole Washington Post to put things into perspective.

Re: Signal Is Back

#142

Post by rglullis »

johnchristopher wrote: post #135
rglullis wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we don't hear about mass exodus to matrix. This is argumentum ad populum . > main @matrix.org server There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. Matrix and Element do not want be the biggest instances or keep things under their control. I can bet that people working on Matrix would be thrilled with the idea of helping people create more instances, and even it would be benefic…

> There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. It's not circumstantial at all. You can't send off people to random server without telling them it might shut down because no one knows the owner or when he's going to stop paying for his experience. @matrix.org is the only place where I'd feel safe sending relatives if they want to onboard because it's the only place I know the mat…

> Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server?

Have you seen communick? It's exactly that: a service that provides managed accounts for federated services such as Matrix/Mastodon/XMPP for a small fee. No server setup required.

Re: Signal Is Back

#143

Post by rglullis »

johnchristopher wrote: post #136
rglullis wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability > it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk. This is a false dichotomy. Nothing about federated services that make it intrinsically less usable. > pretty much Just Works Until it stopped working. And it failed spectacularly. For everyone . I might have to repeat this until I go hoarse, but switching from one centralized…

> Until it stopped working. And it failed spectacularly. For everyone. The outage wasn't global and didn't impact everyone ? It kept working for me and others in my contact list but some couldn't send messages. Also, if @matrix.org fails or @something fails then it impact users who wants to interact with both those addresses. So in the end it's not that much different for users. I think you comment about the will of…

Your argument smells of the "I can't code or don't know Linux, so there is no benefit for me in adopting free software" BS excuse given by those that are to comfortable with Windows/Mac and do not want to give up that away.

I am not a "Matrix guy", don't work for Element or the foundation. Yet, I can provide Matrix hosting services for you.

If you and more of my customers start asking for changes/improvements (customizations to the clients, better solutions for storage, different kinds of integrations, etc) I can go and develop the changes myself AND DEPLOY THEM on a server for you to use, without needing to ask permission from any of the Matrix devs or Element or the Foundation.

Just a very, very real example: I started looking into how I could integrate Hub20 with a Matrix homeserver to allow people to send/receive payments by messaging. It's the kind of functionality that would be super interesting for some folks, it does not require change in functionality of the core protocol in any way and it is very aligned with the Hub20's principle of facilitating access to crypto for the masses that do not want to deal with the complexities of blockchain/wallet/etc.

Such an integration will never happen on Signal. Signal being centralized, there is no separate instance that could try out this integration, or make it work only for the accounts that it can manage. Telegram is the same, WhatsApp is the same.

Instead of looking simply what is given to you "for free" in the different offerings from the market, start looking at what we can build on them. Don't let your lack of imagination become everyone else's weight to carry.

[0]: https:/docs.hub20.io

Re: Signal Is Back

#144

Post by johnchristopher »

rglullis wrote: post #142
johnchristopher wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. It's not circumstantial at all. You can't send off people to random server without telling them it might shut down because no one knows the owner or when he's going to stop paying for his experience. @matrix.org is the only place where I'd feel safe sending relatives if they want to onboard because it's the only place I know the mat…

> Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server? Have you seen communick? It's exactly that: a service that provides managed accounts for federated services such as Matrix/Mastodon/XMPP for a small fee. No server setup required.

Yes I did on mobile and thought it was some hosted solutions. When I got back to it to check it out again on the desktop the page is missing CSS (firefox) and from the text I thought it really was some server hosting.

I was wrong. I checked again and on Chrome you have the full site and if I am not mistaken, for $5 for three months you get a mastodon, a matrix (and a xmpp) identity which is pretty cool (or it's cumulative, I don't know. But $20/y for messaging should be okay, though it's still far away from whatsapp $1 subscription).

This page needs some love but it's exactly what I had in mind :).

Re: Signal Is Back

#145

Post by rglullis »

johnchristopher wrote: post #144
rglullis wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server? Have you seen communick? It's exactly that: a service that provides managed accounts for federated services such as Matrix/Mastodon/XMPP for a small fee. No server setup required.

Yes I did on mobile and thought it was some hosted solutions. When I got back to it to check it out again on the desktop the page is missing CSS (firefox) and from the text I thought it really was some server hosting. I was wrong. I checked again and on Chrome you have the full site and if I am not mistaken, for $5 for three months you get a mastodon, a matrix (and a xmpp) identity which is pretty cool (or it's cumul…

Definitely needs a lot of love. Thanks for letting me know about Firefox not showing CSS. Seems like I have a SSL certificate issue.

Regarding pricing: It's $5 dollar/3 months for all three services and it gives you 10 accounts. So it's actually $2/user/year. Mind you, this is a "soft launch" pricing (as you could see, plenty of work to be done there) and my idea is to grandfather in the first 100 signups. Once I iron out the most critical bugs, I am working with the idea of charging $1/month ($10/year) for single users and $6/month ($60/year) for the 10-user package.

Re: Signal Is Back

#146

Post by faitswulff »

rglullis wrote: post #143
johnchristopher wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Until it stopped working. And it failed spectacularly. For everyone. The outage wasn't global and didn't impact everyone ? It kept working for me and others in my contact list but some couldn't send messages. Also, if @matrix.org fails or @something fails then it impact users who wants to interact with both those addresses. So in the end it's not that much different for users. I think you comment about the will of…

Your argument smells of the "I can't code or don't know Linux, so there is no benefit for me in adopting free software" BS excuse given by those that are to comfortable with Windows/Mac and do not want to give up that away. I am not a "Matrix guy", don't work for Element or the foundation. Yet, I can provide Matrix hosting services for you. If you and more of my customers start asking for changes/improvements (custom…

Starting with an ad hominem, are we, now? Most people can't program and are comfortable with Mac/Windows.

> Don't let your lack of imagination become everyone else's weight to carry.

No one here is shackling you to Signal. You're free to use and customize Matrix, but your argument that people using Signal is no progress at all based solely on being a centralized service is zealotry that is blinding you to the experiences of laypeople.

Starting with your root comment - most people use centralized services that have gone down at some point. In many cases they are still using those services, not because they're foolish muggles who can't program, but because it's worth more to use than it is to switch to something else. Centralized or not, people don't really care. This entire thread has been an effort to convince you that most people don't have the same values you do, hence the argumentum ad populum that you so despise being actually a valid metric of success for a project. Popularity is a flawed argument if you're in a formal debate, but it is useful to nearly every other venture.

So is Signal the best possible messenger it could be? No, probably not. I, too, would like to see a decentralized, federated protocol take off. But is it measurably better than plaintext SMS or Facebook Messenger? Yes, probably.

Re: Signal Is Back

#147

Post by rglullis »

faitswulff wrote: post #146
rglullis wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument smells of the "I can't code or don't know Linux, so there is no benefit for me in adopting free software" BS excuse given by those that are to comfortable with Windows/Mac and do not want to give up that away. I am not a "Matrix guy", don't work for Element or the foundation. Yet, I can provide Matrix hosting services for you. If you and more of my customers start asking for changes/improvements (custom…

Starting with an ad hominem, are we, now? Most people can't program and are comfortable with Mac/Windows. > Don't let your lack of imagination become everyone else's weight to carry. No one here is shackling you to Signal. You're free to use and customize Matrix, but your argument that people using Signal is no progress at all based solely on being a centralized service is zealotry that is blinding you to the experie…

> Most people can't program and are comfortable with Mac/Windows.

Yeah, being comfortable is not the point. The point is being free.

> No one here is shackling you to Signal.

No one forced me to use WhatsApp. I still use it and still have on my phone. I did manage to introduce some people to Matrix, setup their accounts and install their clients when they wanted to talk to me, but there is a whole lot more that I am just not close enough and that I know won't bother to switch just because I am asking them to.

If people ask me, I'd do the best case I can to get them to Matrix (or XMPP. I don't care as long as it is open and free) and I will help them whenever possible to switch away from centralized systems.

> I, too, would like to see a decentralized, federated protocol take off.

If you truly want to see a federated alternative grow, you have to help it. It's not going to happen if we just stand passively waiting for some big benefactor to show up and decide they don't want to control this space. Every big company will try to control this space and they will always have more resources and will use the advantages that centralized services (faster development, economies of scale) gives them.

Network effects matter. There is no better time to help people switch to a more free option than now with this massive WhatsApp diaspora. If people settle for Signal, it would be better than WhatsApp but it would still be a massive wasted opportunity. This is why I am arguing now so strongly.

(Lastly, do you know one software that I am somewhat forced to use? Slack. Do you know what can replace Slack with just a wee bit of training? Matrix. Two birds, one stone)

> Signal is no progress at all.

In the terms of freedom: no, it is not. The server is supposedly open source, yet the last commit in their repository is from April. If someone decided to fork Signal to run their own server, would they get a current version? Would existing clients be able to use the different server?

The answer is possibly, maybe it will require a lot of work on the people doing the fork. Which is fine from the legal perspective, but really far from the mark from Open Source ethics.

Re: Signal Is Back

#148

Post by johnchristopher »

rglullis wrote: post #145
johnchristopher wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I did on mobile and thought it was some hosted solutions. When I got back to it to check it out again on the desktop the page is missing CSS (firefox) and from the text I thought it really was some server hosting. I was wrong. I checked again and on Chrome you have the full site and if I am not mistaken, for $5 for three months you get a mastodon, a matrix (and a xmpp) identity which is pretty cool (or it's cumul…

Definitely needs a lot of love. Thanks for letting me know about Firefox not showing CSS. Seems like I have a SSL certificate issue. Regarding pricing: It's $5 dollar/3 months for all three services and it gives you 10 accounts. So it's actually $2/user/year . Mind you, this is a "soft launch" pricing (as you could see, plenty of work to be done there) and my idea is to grandfather in the first 100 signups. Once I ir…

It's not critical to me but do you plan on supporting external domains ?

Re: Signal Is Back

#149

Post by rglullis »

johnchristopher wrote: post #148
rglullis wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely needs a lot of love. Thanks for letting me know about Firefox not showing CSS. Seems like I have a SSL certificate issue. Regarding pricing: It's $5 dollar/3 months for all three services and it gives you 10 accounts. So it's actually $2/user/year . Mind you, this is a "soft launch" pricing (as you could see, plenty of work to be done there) and my idea is to grandfather in the first 100 signups. Once I ir…

It's not critical to me but do you plan on supporting external domains ?

Do you mean fully managed instances? Yes.

It hasn't been my first priority because there is already a good number of companies offering that for Mastodon, Matrix and XMPP - but I'd certainly want to get to this point as well.

Re: Signal Is Back

#150

Post by emn13 »

juliand wrote: post #100
emn13 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Whatsapp's client is terrible - it not only requires a phone during signup, it requires an active connection to your phone, so if your battery is every running low - good luck with that. Additionally, it allows just 1 desktop client to be active at a time, which is just a hassle. Finally, in practice the connection to a well-charged phone is still subject to the vagaries of a phone app - it's very common for th…

As a power user I find what you said to be strong points of WhatsApp Web. For instance, I want it to alert me as soon as there's a web connection and that's only possible with the current connection model and for security measures I think it's safer to have only one instance at a time. The connection reliability is a hassle but usually when you're in the desktop you also have a good wifi connection and even though th…

Whatsapp web connections aren't reliable in my experience, no matter the wifi. The problem appears to be the android "server", not the connection (or perhaps android bundles its network traffic and turns off the modem periodically to save power?) Regardless, messages get delayed, frequently, especially if you haven't touched your phone for a while. The desktop client notifying me that my idle phone isn't actively using the internet at the moment (something that merely saves power and is otherwise completely harmless, and essentially unobservable) is useless. I don't mind it telling me that the computer has no connection, but that's not what happens.

As to the "only one client is a feature" thing - it isn't for me. And if I didn't quite trust any others using my devices, chats aren't near the top of my priority list - if they have access to all my browsers cookies, and apps, and can change system settings etc etc etc I'm much more worried they'll accidentally install malware than anything else. Don't share your account if you care for privacy, it's a losing game.

I use multiple devices at a time, merely locking them. I don't want to also have all my apps go into an pseudo shutdown; and it's annoying to not be able to read old stuff during a temporary network hiccup.

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