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The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

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Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#221

Post by craigsmansion »

na85 wrote: post #200
submeta wrote: post #30

When you finally learn to master and config Emacs, you run circles around all other editors. Emacs is so much more than just an editor. But even if you only use it for coding: Magit is the best git client I have used in years (coming from PyCharm + Git Tower App, which is nice), then there‘s Ztree-Diff (excellent folder diff tool; previously using Kaleidoscope app), then Eshell for interacting with the server from wi…

>When you finally learn to master and config Emacs, Should be "if" and not "when", in my opinion. It's so incredibly frustrating to watch emacs from the outside. Maybe they don't want emacs to become popular? Certainly given the state of Hurd that could be true, and perhaps merely the fact that a Free editor exists is enough for them. For me, I really like emacs. It's great. But it has flaws/warts/roadblocks that rou…

[Never mind]

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#222

Post by bitwize »

ashtonian2 wrote: post #87
mercer wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use VSCode for my day to day coding, so I have nothing against it, but explain to me how I can 'do' Magit and the like in VSCode...?

Literally anything you can do in emcas there is an extension for or at least one in dev. Vscode will outgrow emcas given its critics mass and momentum.

Has NetCraft confirmed that Emacs is dying yet?

I keep reading on Hackernews and elsewhere that VSCode will solve world hunger. So I try it. And after a week or two, I realize what I'm missing from Emacs and go back. This has happened several times, because I keep thinking, maybe I didn't give VSCode the fair shake it deserves. But VSCode never lives up to the hype, is not compellingly better than Emacs such that I want to switch, and is in some ways worse. Emacs gives me a computing environment that I can shape and mold to my needs quickly and directly, as I use it. VSCode is extensible; for Emacs, extending it is an integral part of working with it.

What's more, VSCode is not even open source. It's more like "open core". The editor core is under an MIT license, but the binary you download from code.visualstudio.com is proprietary, as are many of the most useful plug-ins. Source ports like VSCodium are not first-class in the extension ecosystem.

Emacs, by contrast, is the next thing beyond open source: it's software that describes itself. Whether that be the tutorial for new users, built-in documentation for every function or variable, or the ability to M-. into the implementation, whether in Lisp or C, of any function, the guts of Emacs are always at your fingertips. I get the feeling RMS intended "free software" to be a baseline, a bare minimum for protecting the user's freedom. To truly emancipate the user, something like Emacs where the software actively aids the user's understanding of its internals, is needed.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#223

Post by b5n »

donio wrote: post #212
b5n wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find them incredibly ergonomic, another bonus is that it provides the same defaults found in most terminal emulators. Most people try to use pinky for Ctrl, or map to Capslock, but using the side of your palm for Ctrl is really comfortable. I generally run circles around colleagues in a terminal or working with text, especially when utilizing macros, but the learning curve is definitely steeper and took some time t…

Keyboards that put Ctrl and other important keys under your thumb are also great.

Makes sense. I just use qwerty, side of palm for Ctrl and thumb for Alt. I understand if that's not intuitive to new users, but it becomes comfortable and efficient pretty quickly.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#224

Post by tartoran »

Filligree wrote: post #218
emptysongglass wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people are moving Linux --> Windows. At the company I work for everything is native to Linux--I am floored by the number of interns we get who are using Windows (it's all of them). We have an intake script for getting them up on WSL2 with our stack on top but man these graduates are CompSci people and they did 4 plus years of CompSci using Windows? I can only imagine the pain. Or rather, I know…

Speaking as someone who regularly attempts to switch back to Linux, I did that because the Windows desktop is a genuinely nicer experience. In no particular order... - The traditional start menu / taskbar is genuinely nicer than what Gnome attempts to force on me. OS X is also genuinely nicer than what Gnome attempts to force on me. I'd take either over Gnome. - The Linux desktop environment is laggy. This is difficu…

I use windows for work and as soon as im done I reboot on a linux partition. My daily driver is linux as I hate the lack of control I have and the insecurity (i feel that microsoft does whatever behind the scenes) i get on windows. For example after an update windows shoves me an edge icon on the desktop. I removed all the bloatware on the laptop and multiple times things are re-enabled after an update. I also cannot turn off updates if i want to. There are a few services for which I as an admin have no way of turning off or even change any settings. Wtf! I was able to gain some control of my machine with some registry settings but at the next update everything was overwritten. F that, i don’t wanna play whack-a-mole anymore. If i need to use some windows software i boot the windows partition, then when done boot up on linux. Ubuntu these days is low friction, most Hw works out of box, etc.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#225

Post by harrygeez »

michaelmrose wrote: post #210
harrygeez wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the same boat as you. I love Emacs, the uniform keybindings and especially Magit, I thought I could never use anything else until I started working with TypeScript React in my current job, which Emacs has very bad support for. The funny thing is: I don't even consider VSCode a superior text editor, it's just that Emacs is _so slow_. I used Emacs back then because compared to many other editors and IDE it allow…

Do you use Emacs in windows?

I've used it on Windows before and I think I know what you're talking about. However, right now I'm using it on macOS actually, the mac-port to be more specific.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#226

Post by kpgiskpg »

dmitriid wrote: post #219
BeetleB wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a heavy VSCode user, so I don't know much about its plugin ecosystem. I'm asking the question below sincerely, not to start an argument. Is there a plugin in VSCode to: 1. Read, write and send emails? 2. Have an org mode like system where I can do TODOs, as well as link to things in other aspects of VSCode (e.g. link to an email - something I do routinely)? 2b In general, how easy is it to interconnect the di…

You've selected some use cases designed to show that VSCode is inferior to emacs. What you failed to realize is that your use cases are invalid for probably a vast majority of people: > Read, write and send emails I prefer to do that in a dedicated app that actually knows how to deal with emails, and not from inside my text editor/IDE > can I quickly write something that will read an email, and then go and add a TODO…

The previous user said that you can do "literally anything" in VSCode that you can do in Emacs, I think these examples were chosen to prove that statement wrong. It doesn't mean that Emacs is better for everyone.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#227

Post by ddoice »

diragon wrote: post #100
submeta wrote: post #30

When you finally learn to master and config Emacs, you run circles around all other editors. Emacs is so much more than just an editor. But even if you only use it for coding: Magit is the best git client I have used in years (coming from PyCharm + Git Tower App, which is nice), then there‘s Ztree-Diff (excellent folder diff tool; previously using Kaleidoscope app), then Eshell for interacting with the server from wi…

Naah, not really. I've done that emacs exercise countless of times over a few decades and now I use vscode. I don't feel like I'm missing much.

Only available resources, modern IDEs are like hardware vendors wet dream came true.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#228

Post by dmitriid »

kpgiskpg wrote: post #226
dmitriid wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've selected some use cases designed to show that VSCode is inferior to emacs. What you failed to realize is that your use cases are invalid for probably a vast majority of people: > Read, write and send emails I prefer to do that in a dedicated app that actually knows how to deal with emails, and not from inside my text editor/IDE > can I quickly write something that will read an email, and then go and add a TODO…

The previous user said that you can do "literally anything" in VSCode that you can do in Emacs, I think these examples were chosen to prove that statement wrong. It doesn't mean that Emacs is better for everyone.

I would also think that no one even cares to write an email client or a window manager inside an IDE even if that is possible (it probably is).

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#229

Post by dleslie »

dleslie wrote: post #215
zupatol wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using the mingw windows version every day for years. I used to spend time now and then to make new things work, recently I switched to doom emacs, and almost every new functionality or package I try works out of the box. It's true that Magit is slow, but I still prefer it to the command line.

I'm going to give Doom a shot; I ignored Spacemacs because rebinding native keys and forcing evil-mode was a nonstarter for me. If I wanted to use Vim then I would, and did for a time.

... and that was an immediately disappointing experience.

1. Saving customizations didn't work.

2. Launching Emacs as a client that auto-launches a server _always_ failed the first time.

3. I really don't need a custom package manager built on top of another custom package manager to replace the core package manager. straight.el would've been enough, thanks.

4. My batteries-included Emacs launches a server in a few seconds, a client almost instantaneously; doom took minutes to launch a server on my Pinebook Pro and clients took a few seconds.

5. Another needless dotfile dir in my home. ~/.doom.d could easily have been ~/.emacs.d/doom.d

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#230

Post by antonvs »

nitsky wrote: post #66
antonvs wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an old gun (learned to program in Fortran in 1977), and I recommend giving VScode a try. Its barrier to entry is very low, so you don't need to invest a lot of time to find out whether it's going to be productive for you. It's a real usability jump over older IDEs. I've switched from a combo of, mostly, Intellij IDEA and Vim to almost exclusively VScode (for development). I do still use Spacemacs just for org mod…

The default builds of vscode include telemetry and a non-free license. For a truly free build of vscode, you need to use vscodium. See their description: https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium#why-does-this-exist . I suspect many developers are unaware of this.

That's true, although anyone who cares about truly free software presumably would look into the details to check.

You can disable the telemetry: https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/supporting/faq#_how-to-di...

My point was really that it's free and open enough for any practical purpose I'm able to discern. Refusing to use it on the grounds of insufficient openness or freedom seems to me to require an unreasonably absolutist ideological stance on the issue.

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