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We can do better than Signal

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Re: We can do better than Signal

#201

Post by proactivesvcs »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #38
tomphoolery wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out that decentralization closes the door on top-down censorship, but at the same time, invites spam and abuse of the system for personal gain. It's very easy to do this in a decentralized model, and every single decentralized service suffers from this. IRC, Email, Mastodon, you name it. It's all bad.

The solution is simple. Make the decentralized systems social, with reputation.

I see a lot more witch hunts these days than I did 10 years ago, and most of them are as principled as the days when they were with torches and pitchforks. If I came across a system with a reputation-based feature it would be a red line I would definitely not cross.

Re: We can do better than Signal

#203

Post by Evidlo »

Arathorn wrote: post #136
tombert wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience with Matrix/Element. I was using the desktop app to chat with a friend, and while we were able to get some end-to-end encryption working, it was a huge pain the butt, and if two software engineers struggled this much to get the damn thing working, there's no way in hell that I'm convincing my parents to use it. To me, we have to accept the incremental wins where we can get them; getting my…

Speaking as project lead for Matrix (and Element), I'm trying to understand the mixed feedback we've had this week, and somehow channel all the negativity into improving things. While some folks are clearly using it successfully and seem to like it, another bunch of people say "it was a huge pain in the butt to get E2EE working, and if it two software engineers struggled this much..." etc. When did this E2EE failure…

Here's a screen recording of me trying to log in to app.element.io [0].

0:10 - Stuck on "Verify this login" despite cancelling

1:00 - Same as above. The security phrase I have saved seems to be invalid.

1:38 - Can't drag or expand the left panel. Went away when I made the window wider after I stopped recording.

1:52 - After clicking "Verify" again, the session immediately verifies? I didn't enter any passphrase or do anything in my other logged in sessions.

2:18 - Every time I log in I get a notification about trusting a bunch of old sessions. There doesn't seem to be a way to get rid of them.

This is on a non-private Firefox (68, Debian) session, so maybe the security key is saved somewhere and didn't get loaded the first 2 times I tried to verify?

Also, not necessarily a bug, but to verify by phone I should just get a notification and not have to do 'Settings > Security & Privacy > Show All Sessions > [Guess one of several identical unverified Element Web sessions] > Verify.

[0]: http://files.widloski.com/matrixbug.webm

Mirror: https://youtu.be/QIRHAusQyYI

Re: We can do better than Signal

#205

Post by proactivesvcs »

alex_portabella wrote: post #7

Can anyone closer to development of Signal (or who works on it) comment on why the server code was last updated in April (7 months ago https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server )? Has _all_ development been client side?

I think that the GitHub repos are a copy of their internal VCS that aren't necessarily updated frequently.

Re: We can do better than Signal

#206

Post by fartcannon »

Arathorn wrote: post #136
tombert wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience with Matrix/Element. I was using the desktop app to chat with a friend, and while we were able to get some end-to-end encryption working, it was a huge pain the butt, and if two software engineers struggled this much to get the damn thing working, there's no way in hell that I'm convincing my parents to use it. To me, we have to accept the incremental wins where we can get them; getting my…

Speaking as project lead for Matrix (and Element), I'm trying to understand the mixed feedback we've had this week, and somehow channel all the negativity into improving things. While some folks are clearly using it successfully and seem to like it, another bunch of people say "it was a huge pain in the butt to get E2EE working, and if it two software engineers struggled this much..." etc. When did this E2EE failure…

It's against the rules to call it out on HN, but given how incredible Matrix is, I will happily risk being banned to share that I believe there is an astroturfing campaign currently being undertaken to promote Signal and that you should take the complaints with a grain of salt. Matrix and other competition are being cast with FUD in an attempt to sway fence sitters.

Thank you for Matrix and Element. My non-technical friends and family all use it without issue.

Re: We can do better than Signal

#207

Post by subins2000 »

cercatrova wrote: post #199
interestica wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anyone in the "I tried Matrix and it was awful" camp could give detailed feedback (either here, or on github.com/vector-im/element-{web,ios,android}/issues) then it would be genuinely useful for prioritising our work. At the moment the vast majority of negative feedback on HN has been "it sucked" without giving a hint of what actually went wrong. Your two modes of suggested contact (HN, GitHub) ensure only a cer…

Yep, there should be a crash or bug report form within the app itself, and an email for bugs at something like support@element.io

There is one in Element Android. When the phone is shaken, a dialogue pops up "It seems you're shaking your phone in frustration, file a bug report". It has in-app bug reporting.

Re: We can do better than Signal

#209

Post by immigrantsheep »

alex_portabella wrote: post #7

Can anyone closer to development of Signal (or who works on it) comment on why the server code was last updated in April (7 months ago https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server )? Has _all_ development been client side?

I might be mistaken but I think someone wrote here a few days ago that they noticed the Server being updated but that the github repo doesn't reflect those changes.

Re: We can do better than Signal

#210

Post by kemitchell »

"We can do better" is a dodge. It avoids "I can do better" with a kind of royal "we" that implies other people should do the work. The obvious response to "I can do better" is "okay, go ahead". "We can do better" tries to tell me that I should be working on this guy's problem. That I should buy his line about how important "decentralization" is.

There's a place for software criticism. But the best comes in the form of just writing better software, or improving what we've already got. Calling somebody else's project a "shiny turd", on the other hand, isn't even really criticism. It's name calling.

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