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Signal Is Back

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Re: Signal Is Back

#131

Post by mxuribe »

usr1106 wrote: post #45
mxuribe wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because matrix (the open source protocol) is federated, you have options: matrix server (for self-hosting), SDKs, bots, libraries, etc. = https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now matrix clients = https://matrix.org/clients/ matrix bridges (to interoperate between matrix and other services like irc, slack, telegram, etc.) = https://matrix.org/bridges/ if you don't want to manage on your own, and simply want to…

How many users does matrix have? I tried it last fall on 2 different servers. (Hosting an own server is not possible on a small root server you can get for 5 EUR/USD a month, it requires signifcant resources.) My experience was a bit disappointing. It seems pretty overloaded already, especially the irc bridge. And we are talking of thousands of users. I'm pretty convinced that with millions signing up it would collap…

I honestly don't know how many users matrix has. I think others have already given references to estimates. Though, I believe it is vastly more than just "thousands of users"...but much like email (another federated protocol), i suppose we can never truly know that absolute number, just like we can never know with absolute certainty how many smtp servers and associated mailboxes there are out there.

I'm no longer hosting my own homeserver (can;t spare admin time for it), but when i did, it was running nicely on a $10 USD/month on digital Ocean...and this was circa 2019...I'm not an expert but as i understand it, both synapse (the python-based reference homeserver), and the vastly more performant (though beta) Dendrite have significantly improved since back then. There is certainly something to be said if you're high profile folks (like @Arathorn) who are members of tons of rooms...one can imagine that it would require more resources to support such vastly high interactions (for room data history sync, etc.)...But, hey, its early days, if the experience is too raw for you, you can wait a little while until this becomes more mainstream; no harm, no foul. :-)

Re: Signal Is Back

#132

Post by ixfo »

rglullis wrote: post #104
yorwba wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. Let them put their "regime change" money into generally useful infrastructure like Signal instead of propaganda for their favorite rebel group or some other narrow political goal.

Signal runs on AWS with the excuse that if a state actor decided to block Signal by blocking IPs, they would have to block all of AWS. It all sounds fine, until we are reminded that AWS itself blocked Parler, no chance of recourse and completely within the law. With that in mind, how confident are you to think that CIA's support of Signal goes as far as they can ensure they can control the network?

The threat model for prevention of censoring Signal was originally developed around China, Best Korea, etc.

The original reasoning why WhatsApp used the same crypto/messaging format as Signal was in large part (aside from it being Good Crypto) to make it harder to selectively block TextSecure/Signal based on message content.

So the threat model is now changing (if you're trying to avoid censorship by the US govt etc) and that's going to be interesting to watch unfold. Matrix is much less susceptible to this being an existential threat, of course.

Re: Signal Is Back

#133

Post by rglullis »

zamadatix wrote: post #129
rglullis wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You use email. You use the internet. You use phone networks.

And what % of users are actually advertising their domain, running BGP, and operating their PBX? Now what % of users go through Gmail, Lumen, or AT&T and what happens when one of those go down? Which of these don't have centralized administration/regulation bodies? Which of these will a user say they haven't had hours of downtime with in the last year? Even in the case you have a very well federated system with users…

What exactly are you trying to argue here? "Federated systems fail as well, so we might stick with centralized ones for efficiency". Is that it?

If so, may I suggest you read Antifragile?

Re: Signal Is Back

#134

Post by zamadatix »

rglullis wrote: post #133
zamadatix wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what % of users are actually advertising their domain, running BGP, and operating their PBX? Now what % of users go through Gmail, Lumen, or AT&T and what happens when one of those go down? Which of these don't have centralized administration/regulation bodies? Which of these will a user say they haven't had hours of downtime with in the last year? Even in the case you have a very well federated system with users…

What exactly are you trying to argue here? "Federated systems fail as well, so we might stick with centralized ones for efficiency". Is that it? If so, may I suggest you read Antifragile ?

To point out that "the main lesson I wish developers (and especially Moxie) get to learn is the one that teaches them that centralized services are fragile, bound to fail and simply not worth the cost." has nothing to do with centralized or not. It's not a reason to do things one way or another. There has never been a large long running system, centralized or not, 500 page book or not, that hasn't had user downtime or didn't incur cost. This part is not a matter of theory nor what decentralized systems set out to solve.

There are other valid lessons for why choose decentralized but this is not a "ha, got'em" moment for that. There are also valid pros for centralized as well, hence their real world success and the reason most "decentralized" tech ends up being run in a very centralized fashion when it matures.

Re: Signal Is Back

#135

Post by johnchristopher »

rglullis wrote: post #75
johnchristopher wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet at the end of the day we don't hear about a mass exodus to matrix. We don't even know if the main @matrix.org server would have held and if federation would have keep working. Not worth the cost? How much did whatsapp cost to Facebook? How much did whatsapp cost before that? Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer.

> we don't hear about mass exodus to matrix. This is argumentum ad populum . > main @matrix.org server There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. Matrix and Element do not want be the biggest instances or keep things under their control. I can bet that people working on Matrix would be thrilled with the idea of helping people create more instances, and even it would be benefic…

> There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial.

It's not circumstantial at all. You can't send off people to random server without telling them it might shut down because no one knows the owner or when he's going to stop paying for his experience. @matrix.org is the only place where I'd feel safe sending relatives if they want to onboard because it's the only place I know the matrix guys are going to keep running. Most posts I am seeing on HN these days stating registering a matrix account was easy did it on matrix.org.

I believe they should charge a fee. To avoid the GMail effect that got everyone a free email but trapped them in the end. And no, you can't jump as easily from one @something to @somethingelse because you lose your message history and attachments (that's where the often cited mail analogy fails us: with email you can take your email with you when switching). If this chat history doesn't matter BUT you have to find a way to export your contacts then I don't see why it's better than Signal for regular joes.

Two years ago I could run my own matrix instance on a small VPS. Now it requires too much resources, especially when it's federated. Also, the mail federation analogy falls short here because nothing prevents mail from circulating between @something and @somethingelse while matrix has it in its design to whitelist some federated servers.

> https://communick.com, there you go.

Not what I mean. I am not looking to forward this to people asking me "hey, how do I get on matrix ?" "here, set up or buy your own server". Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server ? Matrix.org But we don't see a rush of new users on Matrix. I wish there were though but I am convinced Matrix and Signal don't address the needs of the same people. And that's certainly why every signal thread seem to attract matrix supporters and we get into that federated/centralized debate. Which has been beaten to death.

Re: Signal Is Back

#136

Post by johnchristopher »

rglullis wrote: post #123
faitswulff wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t every startup, every service, every open source library an argumentum ad populum ? Especially network goods like messaging services. I don’t doubt there’s a lot of value in federated decentralized services, but there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability. Thanks to comments endorsing matrix here, I will be installing it to try, but what Signal gets right is that it pretty much Just Wor…

> there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability > it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk. This is a false dichotomy. Nothing about federated services that make it intrinsically less usable. > pretty much Just Works Until it stopped working. And it failed spectacularly. For everyone . I might have to repeat this until I go hoarse, but switching from one centralized…

> Until it stopped working. And it failed spectacularly. For everyone.

The outage wasn't global and didn't impact everyone ? It kept working for me and others in my contact list but some couldn't send messages.

Also, if @matrix.org fails or @something fails then it impact users who wants to interact with both those addresses. So in the end it's not that much different for users.

I think you comment about the will of the people is a bit off the rails. If anything the whatsapp exodus shows it's not true since we are seeing people moving from whatsapp to signal.

When I run my own matrix instance I am still dependent on the matrix guys and what they want to do with the protocol and the de facto only matrix server's code. I can't fix anything with my instance but basic proxy/ssl/dns errors. I can't get the ship to stir in any directions. There are no matrix board where I could voice my concerns about stickers or the default colourscheme. Just like Signal.

Re: Signal Is Back

#137

Post by johnchristopher »

DarkByte8 wrote: post #111
johnchristopher wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Green account promoting federation without naming it? It's getting a little bit obvious guys. I love both but come on...

I had to search what you meant. What is wrong with having the possibility to use your own server to communicate with friends? I have the server, they pay me for electricity and hosting.

> What is wrong with having the possibility to use your own server to communicate with friends? I have the server, they pay me for electricity and hosting.

Why would you believe I think it's wrong ?

Re: Signal Is Back

#138

Post by smichel17 »

johnchristopher wrote: post #73
DarkByte8 wrote: post #72

It would be nice to have a self hosted server that you can use with some friends. example: Me and 2 other friends use our own server while with my parents use signal server.

Green account promoting federation without naming it? It's getting a little bit obvious guys. I love both but come on...

I think we there is a much simpler explanation in this case: Signal just had an outage affecting millions of people, many of whom don't have HN accounts. Some of them have found this thread.

Re: Signal Is Back

#139

Post by matbatt38 »

rglullis wrote: post #65
rch wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kick in a few dollars a month, and recommend you do the same.

So, not really "free for everyone". TANSTAAFL. Downvoters, kindly explain what is so wrong about my statement. There are costs to run the operation, having generous benefactors writing big checks (a) do not change this, (b) makes Signal's operation dependent on the source of revenue and (c) hide these externalities long enough to hinder the development of cheaper/more efficient alternatives. IOW, "depending on donati…

Well actually for-profit company also tend to die when they run out of other people's money...

Re: Signal Is Back

#140

Post by loughnane »

swirepe wrote: post #36
faitswulff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This came up on the forum and someone raised a good point - would direct connections require the sender and receiver to be online at the same time? I feel like the architecture has to be more clever than just a WebRTC connection between clients.

There was a really good YouTube lecture about how signal works, and it addresses phones being offline. Unfortunately there's been a ton of low-quality videos on Signal released in the past few days, and it's taking me a while to find it.

Might be the one from computerphile
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