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The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

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Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#91

Post by monroewalker »

submeta wrote: post #30

When you finally learn to master and config Emacs, you run circles around all other editors. Emacs is so much more than just an editor. But even if you only use it for coding: Magit is the best git client I have used in years (coming from PyCharm + Git Tower App, which is nice), then there‘s Ztree-Diff (excellent folder diff tool; previously using Kaleidoscope app), then Eshell for interacting with the server from wi…

Do you mind sharing a bit more about your setup and workflows? Or a link to anywhere where you've discussed it before?

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#93

Post by brixie »

On the discussion of values, I'd also like to submit "(expected) longevity" for consideration, which I think is distinct from "stability".

I made the switch from Vim to Neovim as soon as I felt confident that (1) the project was going to be around for a while, and (2) it was on track to "overtake" Vim (you may choose to disagree with me on this, I found built-in LSP to be a compelling selling point, but the specifics aren't really related to the point I'm trying to make). That it was almost completely a drop-in replacement, down to the init file, certainly didn't hurt.

Under the author's framework, Neovim apparently prefers "progressiveness" while Vim prefers "stability", and those two sound dimetrically at odds based on their descriptions; but both have large, active communities that aren't going anywhere. I'm not sure I can say the same about Kakoune, for example, which is a certainly a promising project but hasn't yet convinced me to jump the fence.

[edit for Emacs thoughts]: Now that I think about it, "text centrism" in my mind is also closely related to longevity. I don't care as much about the properties of plain text as I do about the fact that I'll be able to open/view/edit them _even if the application ecosystem dies_. I find Emacs attractive here with org-mode and, to a lesser extent, org-roam (the comparison here would be between e.g. SaaS productivity offerings like Notion).

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#94

Post by akho »

ashtonian2 wrote: post #87
mercer wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use VSCode for my day to day coding, so I have nothing against it, but explain to me how I can 'do' Magit and the like in VSCode...?

Literally anything you can do in emcas there is an extension for or at least one in dev. Vscode will outgrow emcas given its critics mass and momentum.

“Critics mass” of whom? VS Code is very disappointing, given the hype. Can you give an example of something in the VS Code ecosystem that can impress an Emacs user enough to switch, beyond chrome?

Chrome will always attract crowds, of course.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#95

Post by bobajeff »

opencl wrote: post #76
nitsky wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The default builds of vscode include telemetry and a non-free license. For a truly free build of vscode, you need to use vscodium. See their description: https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium#why-does-this-exist . I suspect many developers are unaware of this.

The most important practical detail here is that if you run vscodium, or download and build the vscode repo from microsoft yourself, or use any forks of vscode, you cannot install any of the extensions hosted on microsoft's servers without violating their license terms. There are alternative extension marketplaces such as https://open-vsx.org/ but they are missing a lot of the extensions, some of which are proprietar…

The vscode marketplace also provides a link to download extensions as a vsix file on every extension page. So if the extension isn't on open-vsx I just download it directly and install it.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#96

Post by tome »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #79
elagost wrote: post #9

This is really well written and researched but confuses me. Do most people not do this - make choices based on values (and constantly re-evaluate those choices in the face of new information)? When I decide to use software, move to a new location, purchase cereal at the grocery store, buy music, and a variety of other daily activities, these are choices I make based on my values. Many times I end up picking something…

I'm not sure and I see your point, but also, you are maybe saying that, effectively, "convenience" or "usability" are values you (and most people) prioritize. Which is not so different from when the OP article talks about emacs prioritizing "stability" really. "stability" isn't, like an ethical value or something really, it's a practical one, as are many of the others listed in OP.

I don't think "convenience" is a value for the buyer of a consumer good any more than "going downhill" is a value for the designer of a roller coaster. It's just easier.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#97

Post by submeta »

cannabis_sam wrote: post #83
submeta wrote: post #30

When you finally learn to master and config Emacs, you run circles around all other editors. Emacs is so much more than just an editor. But even if you only use it for coding: Magit is the best git client I have used in years (coming from PyCharm + Git Tower App, which is nice), then there‘s Ztree-Diff (excellent folder diff tool; previously using Kaleidoscope app), then Eshell for interacting with the server from wi…

I’m kinda in love with VSCode at the moment, even though I have used Emacs (or at least some mac customized version, maybe SpaceEmacs?) for agda-mode When I tried to go outside of the agda-mode documentation, to try to learn emacs properly, I kinda struggled to find a reliable tutorial or introduction that got me started on how emacs and the culture/ecosystem works. (Maybe it was just me who got tripped up by my unfa…

I do admit VSCode is a very polished product. Just like the other tools I mentioned (PyCharm, Kaleidoscope for diffs, Tower App as git client etc).

What makes Emacs different - when you look beyond the simple looking interface - is the possibility to make the packages / plugins work together not intended by the original authors by creating hooks that change the return value of the packages, and you can tie together the tools by writing Elisp scripts.

As to where to start: There are many young and ambitious hackers who are re-developing Emacs + Lisp for creating their custom dev / hacking / writing environment, and who create wonderful youtube videos. Magnar Sveen started doing this several years ago (emacsrock.com), then there are (among others) Protesilas Stavrou or the channel of "System Crafters".

When you prefer reading books: "An Introduction To Programming In Emacs Lisp" from Robert Chassell is excellent for learning the basics of Elisp. Mickey Petersens "Mastering Emacs" is excellent. Harley Hahn's Emacs Field Guide is recommended as well.

Also, r/emacs and r/orgmode are excellent communities.

Give yourself time. Don't hurry. Emacs is a tool that will keep your company in twenty years from now, when all the hyped tools are long gone (Textmate users moved to Sublime, then some of them to VS Code, who know's what's next?).

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#98

Post by john61 »

cannabis_sam wrote: post #83
submeta wrote: post #30

When you finally learn to master and config Emacs, you run circles around all other editors. Emacs is so much more than just an editor. But even if you only use it for coding: Magit is the best git client I have used in years (coming from PyCharm + Git Tower App, which is nice), then there‘s Ztree-Diff (excellent folder diff tool; previously using Kaleidoscope app), then Eshell for interacting with the server from wi…

I’m kinda in love with VSCode at the moment, even though I have used Emacs (or at least some mac customized version, maybe SpaceEmacs?) for agda-mode When I tried to go outside of the agda-mode documentation, to try to learn emacs properly, I kinda struggled to find a reliable tutorial or introduction that got me started on how emacs and the culture/ecosystem works. (Maybe it was just me who got tripped up by my unfa…

Emacs has great interactive tutorials built in: C-h t and has a great info system and help functions: C-h h also: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/ There is really a lot of excellent documentation built in and the source code is very easy to find and read.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#99

Post by indymike »

ashtonian2 wrote: post #87
mercer wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use VSCode for my day to day coding, so I have nothing against it, but explain to me how I can 'do' Magit and the like in VSCode...?

Literally anything you can do in emcas there is an extension for or at least one in dev. Vscode will outgrow emcas given its critics mass and momentum.

The question is will it grow in the right direction? Org-mode, magit and a pure terminal interface (can run on remotes through an SSH sesion) are still missing. Still love the ergonomics of vs code.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#100

Post by diragon »

submeta wrote: post #30

When you finally learn to master and config Emacs, you run circles around all other editors. Emacs is so much more than just an editor. But even if you only use it for coding: Magit is the best git client I have used in years (coming from PyCharm + Git Tower App, which is nice), then there‘s Ztree-Diff (excellent folder diff tool; previously using Kaleidoscope app), then Eshell for interacting with the server from wi…

Naah, not really. I've done that emacs exercise countless of times over a few decades and now I use vscode. I don't feel like I'm missing much.
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