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The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

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Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#71

Post by bhaak »

elagost wrote: post #9

This is really well written and researched but confuses me. Do most people not do this - make choices based on values (and constantly re-evaluate those choices in the face of new information)? When I decide to use software, move to a new location, purchase cereal at the grocery store, buy music, and a variety of other daily activities, these are choices I make based on my values. Many times I end up picking something…

Contrary to the other replies to you I think that most people do "make choices based on values" but the crucial problem is "given enough information".

Remember that everyone of us is in an information bubble. We constantly filter out unimportant information based on our experiences.

If you are using Emacs and encounter a new problem you will first try to solve it with the tools you are used to (if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail).

Finding new sources of information to change our filters is hard. Think back to the last time you came to a completely new technology and how lost you feel until you get a good grasp about it and how much of an uphill battle this can be.

The sunk cost fallacy runs deep there as well. Going back to something you know already well enough is often a tempting option.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#72

Post by rcarmo »

I've tried all of them, and still prefer vim because it's the least hassle to install/configure anywhere - my dotfile setup installs my plugins automatically, and I'm set.

However, I do use VSCode extensively as well, largely because of the language servers. But sometimes it takes so long to start up (and nags me to do so many updates to itself and extensions) that I just toss the window aside and use a native Mac editor (like Textastic) to work while it finishes.

Sometimes I don't go back -- it's all a matter of taste, really.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#73

Post by sedev »

umvi wrote: post #51
qppo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do all that and more in vscode as well... you just have to "learn to master and config" it with your own plugins in JS. It's not that hard.

I tend to let other people "master and config" VSCode and then I just go download their extensions. IMO that's the beauty of VSCode - critical mass

That's also available with emacs, though, it has its own extension ecosystem that's about as easy to access as VSCode's.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#74

Post by ilaksh »

I use vim frequently. But I think that people should realize and be able to admit that vim and emacs are outdated. They can still be useful especially for people like me who have a sunk cost in learning them. But the honest evaluation is outdated. For example, the core modal interface of vim is related to historical limitations at the time it was created.

http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_hardware_and_key_choices.htm... Basically historical happenstance has become part of multiple religions defending dated programs.

My current favorites are Jupyter Notebooks and the combination of gedit with fish shell.

VSCode is great but a lot of times feels like overkill and a little bloated.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#75

Post by aidos »

kloud wrote: post #65

VSCode has great and convenient language support, but the trade-off is reduced text editing efficiency, slower speed and more bloat. It is a worthy trade-off in many situations, I use it often when working on projects that are written in languages I am not too familiar with. I would like to emphasize how big of a game changer the next release of Neovim 0.5.0 will be. With builtin LSP support it will get code navigati…

That’s amazing news. Native LSP would be game changing. I use coc, but it takes a bit of messing about to get everything working smoothly. Also vscode has has a bunch of extra stuff beyond what’s available via LSP for python now, which is a shame because I’d love to get a full pyright + bells experience in vim.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#76

Post by opencl »

nitsky wrote: post #66
antonvs wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an old gun (learned to program in Fortran in 1977), and I recommend giving VScode a try. Its barrier to entry is very low, so you don't need to invest a lot of time to find out whether it's going to be productive for you. It's a real usability jump over older IDEs. I've switched from a combo of, mostly, Intellij IDEA and Vim to almost exclusively VScode (for development). I do still use Spacemacs just for org mod…

The default builds of vscode include telemetry and a non-free license. For a truly free build of vscode, you need to use vscodium. See their description: https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium#why-does-this-exist . I suspect many developers are unaware of this.

The most important practical detail here is that if you run vscodium, or download and build the vscode repo from microsoft yourself, or use any forks of vscode, you cannot install any of the extensions hosted on microsoft's servers without violating their license terms.

There are alternative extension marketplaces such as https://open-vsx.org/ but they are missing a lot of the extensions, some of which are proprietary.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#77

Post by the__alchemist »

I'm curious if the userbase of these have tried a Jetbrains IDE (PyCharm, CLion, IntelliJ etc). I've found the Jetbrains IDEs understand the language more thoroughly - this means better code navigation, error-catching, and refactoring. I've also found the implicit project-first focus (as opposed to file-first) to be more practical for most things I work on.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#78

Post by Ozzie_osman »

This was really well-written.

One thing I'd recommend is to think more about "principles" than "values". The difference, in my mind, is that values are sort of ingrained into us as humans, and we can't change them. They include good beliefs but also a lot of personal baggage.

Principles, on the other hand, are things we _choose_ to act on. Ideally they are the same as our values, but when building/designing something, it's best to choose principles.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#79

Post by jrochkind1 »

elagost wrote: post #9

This is really well written and researched but confuses me. Do most people not do this - make choices based on values (and constantly re-evaluate those choices in the face of new information)? When I decide to use software, move to a new location, purchase cereal at the grocery store, buy music, and a variety of other daily activities, these are choices I make based on my values. Many times I end up picking something…

I'm not sure and I see your point, but also, you are maybe saying that, effectively, "convenience" or "usability" are values you (and most people) prioritize.

Which is not so different from when the OP article talks about emacs prioritizing "stability" really. "stability" isn't, like an ethical value or something really, it's a practical one, as are many of the others listed in OP.

Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla

#80

Post by moocowtruck »

mercer wrote: post #63
qppo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do all that and more in vscode as well... you just have to "learn to master and config" it with your own plugins in JS. It's not that hard.

I use VSCode for my day to day coding, so I have nothing against it, but explain to me how I can 'do' Magit and the like in VSCode...?

https://github.com/kahole/edamagit
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