Earlier quoted context omitted.
The only place that the developer of neovim is referred to as its “author” is in a quote. But also, I didn’t get this impression at all while reading the article.
The article is deliberately using selective quotes to paint Bram Molenaar in the worst possible light. A common tactic among people who take over code bases in order to cruise on other people's hard work.
The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla
31–40 of 353 posts
Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla
#32Are powerful editors really that much of a force multiplier? My career path has pulled me from a CS degree into loosely related fields so I mostly only code as a hobby. I end up using basic editors (e.g., gedit) and reaching for grep/sed/etc when I need something fancy. Is having that power in the editor versus the command line that much of an advantage?
Refactoring is a good example: I’ve noticed that most programmers who don’t use advanced editors avoid fixing things which require analysis because it’s tedious to do right. That leads to accumulated technical debt over time with variables or methods having now-inaccurate names, etc. Nothing critical but a frictional cost which goes down when you have easy tools to perform language-aware refactoring (e.g. replacing a name in a function but not the same name used elsewhere in the same file).
Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla
#33> It also shines in areas where Emacs doesn’t: if you’re a programmer working on typical contemporary projects, mostly just wanting to get stuff done, things usually… just work. You install VSCode, open a source code file, get asked to install the extension for that particular language, and that’s it. You get smart completion, static analysis, linting, advanced debugging, refactoring tools, deep integration with git…
Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla
#34Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla
#35Noob question: Is Sublime text still a good text-editor in 2021? Did it just loose momentum or not being open-source is insurmountable? I still think its speed and usability are not easy to match.
Open source is kinda irrelevant IMO. The answer is, of course, it depends . How much do you value language integration? Do you have muscle memory for vim or emacs? There are many more questions here. VSCode supports language server protocol arguably best, because LSP/VSCode/TypeScript were all developed somewhat in parallel. But some languages don't have complete language servers, or already had their own forms of ID…
Good tools become even better with time investment. I don't want to invest time into a tool that dies if the dev company loses interest/goes bankrupt/gets bought by oracle/... . Emacs is much older than me and will be around for decades to come. Sublime 2? Probably not. Sublime 3, probably several years. Sublime 4,5,6... who knows.
Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla
#36I don’t find VS Code to be a good text editor in the sense of a tool to wrangle text: the keyboard shortcuts are rather arbitrary and don’t seem to be logically organised, and it seems not to have learnt much from eg modern text editors like Sublime Text (even Sublime compatibility isn’t as good as the real thing). That said, for writing code, it’s fine because most of the time I’m thinking and typing in short runs o…
The worst part is, ironically, the editor itself. As a former vim user I'd love to have vim keybindings, but the vim extensions are painfully slow and unresponsive. I ended up just using the default in spite of it being incredibly mediocre.
Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla
#37Our text editor is a tool, there’s no fundamental value in a tool vs the other, they do not possess life. They’re tools like a fork is a tool. I wonder what of the things you use in the day to day you analyze so deeply, your microwave ? The forks you buy? Might be an interesting exercise of thought but for something that I use to make money, I will use the best tool available for the job, thank you very much.
Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla
#38Noob question: Is Sublime text still a good text-editor in 2021? Did it just loose momentum or not being open-source is insurmountable? I still think its speed and usability are not easy to match.
I still use it to quickly edit text or read some files quickly cause it opens really fast but it's definitely never going to be my daily driver unless something changes drastically
Re: The values of Emacs, the Neovim revolution, and the VSCode gorilla
#39Emacs has a degree of integration and customization ability that VSCode just can't touch, so all this talk about VSCode being "objectively better" is pretty myopically focused on just a handful of things geared towards ordinary developers "who mostly just want to get stuff done".
Those aren't the only people in existence, and if Emacs doesn't cater to those it's not because of its philosophy of Freedom, but because it doesn't have enough developers who care to steer it in that direction.
Emacs is an editor-creation toolkit which is about customization, flexibility, and power. Making it easy to use for people who don't want to invest much time crafting their own editor with this toolkit is just not a big priority.
That said, there are some packages like Prelude, which aim at giving Emacs sane defaults and making it easier to use for beginners (though I've never used any of them, so can't vouch for how well they achieve this aim, and I doubt that any of them would give you a full VSCode-like experience out of the box).
To me the biggest weakness of Emacs, but also a strength, is that like a typical large open source meta-project (like Linux, the OS including all the software developed for it, not just the kernel) it's a multi-directional effort of hundreds of volunteer developers each running in their own direction.
There are no orders from the top steering in one direction, no army of paid developers to make thorny, decades-old bugs finally disappear. Volunteers will get to those if they're interested, and go the way their own interests take them.
It just so happens that the stars aligned so that we have the Emacs of today, given the volunteers of yesterday. If they were different volunteers with different priorities, Emacs would be different, and different volunteers tomorrow may steer Emacs in yet another direction. There is no plan. It's an anthill without a queen, with each ant building what it personally wants.
This is why, like mature languages with large ecosystems, like Python, like other flexible editors (ie. vim, with its many plugins), and like Firefox (with all of its extensions) you have packages that "interfere with one another, depend on functionality from other packages that get deprecated, changed in incompatible ways, or removed."
You really can't have a large package ecosystem developed primarily by volunteers and not have this problem. People work on what they want to work on, and if they don't want to spend the time maintaining their package or making sure it's compatible with whatever package combination any particular user happens to be using, then there are going to be incompatibilities.
But I'll take that incompatibility in a heartbeat for the enormous flexibility and power it offers, especially if the alternative is a meager, inflexible package ecosystem where how I edit is dictated from on high by people who cater to the average developer who "just wants to get things done".
If you want Emacs to be something else you either have to be really good at herding cats, do it yourself, or pay someone to do it for you. Even then, you'll have to somehow convince all of its users to switch to your "improved" version. Good luck.