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Toxic positivity does more harm than good

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Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#271

Post by mbrodersen »

Trasmatta wrote: post #67
jcelerier wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything from the company's marketing material to its recruiting practices exudes an almost overwhelming amount of positivity. I don't know if it's because I'm french but that kind of thing makes me throw up in my mouth and is a super big turn-off. Some things sucks, it's fine, accept it and move on or try to make them better through actions. Words don't make things better.

I don't have any hard evidence for this, but it seems to me that this fake positivity is a lot more prevalent in the US than in Europe

I agree 100% having lived, worked, and paid taxes in Denmark, England, Scotland, the US, and Australia. It is a very US thing.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#272

Post by twizilla »

pdimitar wrote: post #251
hnarn wrote: post #80

I vastly prefer honest negativity over dishonest positivity. An example of this is the behavior of service personnel in the US compared to my native country, every time I go there I almost want to tell them to tone down the niceness, but of course there's no point because I realize I'm the odd one out. Of course I appreciate the effort of being "nice" but when you're not doing it out of genuine care for someone I'd m…

One of the hardest cultural shocks for me to this day is when an American off-handedly asks me "how are you?" at the beginning of a meet and how shocked they seem when I go on to elaborate on how I am feeling -- even it takes me 10-15s they seem to need time to get themselves together because it seems as though I did something outrageous. Not bashing , let's be clear on that. But this keeps catching me off-guard, eve…

I used to have problems with "Hi, how are you?" too.

I found that it can be useful to consider "Hi, how are you?" as a friendly game of catch. At the basic level you can reply "'Sall right, how _you_ doin'?" You've caught the ball and tossed it back. Even if you are walking in different directions down the hall this will work... or even looking up and saying "hey" is acknowledging the ball in the air. In an "office" this probably would work fine, but I have always been either self-employed or worked in small businesses. So I don't know if this would work on the 24th floor.

In day to day life... I imagine the person at the check out counter has a repetitive job that can be quite dreary if all they are doing is punching buttons all day without any engagement... asking the same questions: "Did you find everything?" "Do you have any coupons?" "How are you doing today?" So when I can I try to catch the ball, paint it a different color and toss it back. It's a two part process How are you doing? #1 catch the ball: "I made it this far, I'm gonna keep going." #2 toss it back: "How are you keeping up?"

You can have dozens of responses for for each part... mix & match... Silliness can get you bonus points. It's just a game. You will discover ways in which a few words can make it so that you're having a bit more fun, the checkout person (or server, or phone support person, or...) can also get a few giggles while grinding through their, perhaps miserable, job... hey, everybody wins.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#273

Post by lazyasciiart »

karpierz wrote: post #245
lazyasciiart wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to see a therapist who told me to do that, and eventually I realized it was a bullshit idea and I should not be working on reframing my expectations of colleagues so I was OK with them actively lying about work, so I quit and it was fantastic. You can try and change yourself to make things work, but it's not always the right or even healthy way to approach a problem.

The point isn't to lower your expectations, the point is acknowledge that the way you feel is under your control and it's up to you to do something about it. So if your coworkers let you down, they don't make you feel let down, your own expectations make you feel let down. How you fix that is your responsibility. You can try and help your colleagues, you can rely on them less, or you can quit your job. Blaming your c…

> John didn't let you down, you had expectations about what he was going to do

This is where we disagree. John did let you down. It's OK to blame him. It's OK to be a normal person that reacts to other people's actions and not some kind of zen robot. And recognizing that someone else's behavior causes you to feel shitty doesn't make you powerless to change.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#274

Post by vagrantJin »

op03 wrote: post #7
fastball wrote: post #2

I think Toxic Positivity is a bit of a misnomer, I'd probably call it "False Positivity". It's not some subset of real positivity that is toxic, it's just... not actual positivity. It's an act.

Next up True Negativity or Positive Toxicity. Take your pick. “Our language is an imperfect instrument created by ancient and ignorant men. It is an animistic language that invites us to talk about stability and constants, about similarities and normal and kinds, about magical transformations, quick cures, simple problems, and final solutions. Yet the world we try to symbolize with this language is a world of process…

The word toxic and the derived toxicity are starting to grate.

> And the mismatch of our ever-changing world and our relatively static language forms is part of our problem

Hegel and his merry-band of psuedo-intellectuals like this clown (Johnson) are the reason philosophy isn't taken seriously as it used to.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#275

Post by karpierz »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #273
karpierz wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't to lower your expectations, the point is acknowledge that the way you feel is under your control and it's up to you to do something about it. So if your coworkers let you down, they don't make you feel let down, your own expectations make you feel let down. How you fix that is your responsibility. You can try and help your colleagues, you can rely on them less, or you can quit your job. Blaming your c…

> John didn't let you down, you had expectations about what he was going to do This is where we disagree. John did let you down. It's OK to blame him. It's OK to be a normal person that reacts to other people's actions and not some kind of zen robot. And recognizing that someone else's behavior causes you to feel shitty doesn't make you powerless to change.

John did let you down, but he didn't make you feel let down. You can blame John for letting you down, but you can't blame John for you feeling let down.

You are responsible for your own emotions. Recognizing that doesn't make you a zen robot. You can still feel. But don't put those feelings on other people and make them responsible for making you feel the way you want to feel.

You can recognize patterns for your emotions, like "I get sad when people make fun of me", but that doesn't mean that you have to be sad when people make fun of you. Recognizing the distinction is what gives power to change.

And sure, there are limits. The feelings that arise when tortured for example are rooted in physiology and near unavoidable. But I suspect that John didn't let you down by waterboarding you.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#276

Post by [deleted] »

Trasmatta wrote: post #67
jcelerier wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything from the company's marketing material to its recruiting practices exudes an almost overwhelming amount of positivity. I don't know if it's because I'm french but that kind of thing makes me throw up in my mouth and is a super big turn-off. Some things sucks, it's fine, accept it and move on or try to make them better through actions. Words don't make things better.

I don't have any hard evidence for this, but it seems to me that this fake positivity is a lot more prevalent in the US than in Europe

[deleted]

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#277

Post by tluyben2 »

Trasmatta wrote: post #67
jcelerier wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything from the company's marketing material to its recruiting practices exudes an almost overwhelming amount of positivity. I don't know if it's because I'm french but that kind of thing makes me throw up in my mouth and is a super big turn-off. Some things sucks, it's fine, accept it and move on or try to make them better through actions. Words don't make things better.

I don't have any hard evidence for this, but it seems to me that this fake positivity is a lot more prevalent in the US than in Europe

Yep, it is a US thing and, as eu resident, I find it incredibly annoying. Everything is GREAT always, until it isn't (aka when it all collapses and it becomes obvious) and I am negative for pointing out that reality 'spoiling the good atmosphere'.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#278

Post by andersource »

throw14082020 wrote: post #208
andersource wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the linked article. There are a few important distinctions, most notably (from the article itself): > "We praise drawings ... because we want our kids to continue to work hard, and to do good work... But what we really want to teach our children... is that they should do good work because of the satisfactions it provides." While I understand how this could apply to children (i…

I think the case with children is the same as with adults. We don't raise children "to have fun". Some would say we raise children to have a meaningful life for the parent, and I would hope for the children as well, i.e. "to do good work" as you say. Like others have said, effect of praise would be very specific to individuals, but some have said praise hasn't helped them much. It definitely has not helped me, so her…

> Like others have said, effect of praise would be very specific to individuals, but some have said praise hasn't helped them much.

My understanding is that they were mostly referring to "fake" / superfluous praise, which I too respond quite badly to. But I think there's a big range between that kind of praise and no praise at all. Personally for me (and my guess is that for many people), if no matter how hard I work that's never acknowledged and I always get suggestions for improvement, that would create frustration and a feeling of unreasonable expectations from the company.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#279

Post by danielscrubs »

mbrodersen wrote: post #267
danielscrubs wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“We need to work harder” is not the kind of manager I like. The best ones just set a great example and work harder and put in overtime themselves and the rest of the team are usually are sympathetic enough to follow.

Overtime is a sign that the team is badly managed and/or understaffed.

Indeed, but that’s already the case if the manager goes around and says that we should work harder.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#280

Post by cutemonster »

UpsilonAlpha wrote: post #120
tchalla wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the end, HOW you deliver feedback matters. Personally, I have three important characteristics for a feedback. Point 1 : "Be Specific". I can not stress this enough. Please point out specific observable behaviour. Point 2 : Frame feedback in terms of team/organisational goals. Every team has a purpose within the organisation. It's a team game and every team member should know the feedback in context of the team gam…

To add on to this. Following these steps will often avoid the problem described by GP. If you can't find specific actions to praise, then there is a good chance the recipient will feel the praise is hollow.

What are good things to say, if one is to give feedback but cannot think of anything to praise?

But indeed can think of things the other person could do better / improve upon. (However, maybe only "criticizing" isn't so nice)

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