Toxic positivity does more harm than good • Hacker News Board

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#261

Post by deanCommie » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 3:00 AM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #217

deanCommie wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian here. Our culture tends to pick and choose from the best of either the American or the European approach. We don't always get it right, and the combination/middle ground isn't necessarily better than either of the alternatives, but I do feel like we have some general insight and sympathy to both the European and the American philosophies. I've also lived as an ex-pat in Europe for 4 years working closely wit…

> Europeans are overly sensitive about "micro-friendliness". I've heard people complain that the cashier at the grocery store asks "How are you doing?". "They don't really care, why do they ask!" This is more of an expectations thing; certainly in Dutch, asking "how are you doing" is something you do when you ask when you really want to start a conversation, and you expect a somewhat serious reply in return, whereas…

I hear you, but I'm not talking about people discussing this concept in the abstract, I'm talking about people that have moved to and lived in North America for YEARS, and never stopped being bothered by it.

I've also heard Italians, French, and Swiss complain about it.

The issue wasn't the language, it was the faux cheeriness that came with it.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#262

Post by deanCommie » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 3:01 AM UTC

Bayart wrote: post #184

deanCommie wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian here. Our culture tends to pick and choose from the best of either the American or the European approach. We don't always get it right, and the combination/middle ground isn't necessarily better than either of the alternatives, but I do feel like we have some general insight and sympathy to both the European and the American philosophies. I've also lived as an ex-pat in Europe for 4 years working closely wit…

>But just a general casual lunch or dinner you're just not going to get the same quality of service as you do in North America. That's just circling back to North America and Continental Europe having diametrically opposed notions of what good service means and what social interactions are desirable. At the risk of sounding like a prick, a good staff member here is someone who makes themselves completely invisible fr…

Meanwhile, coming from the other side, I would love if I can get a waiter to discuss something else I need (more mayo, a napkin, etc) without feeling like I need to either wait for half my meal, yell across the restuarant, or go wander through looking for it.

You went out into public to have a meal, why are you expecting privacy? If you wanted privacy, get takeout and eat at home.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#263

Post by deanCommie » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

robocat wrote: post #185

deanCommie wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian here. Our culture tends to pick and choose from the best of either the American or the European approach. We don't always get it right, and the combination/middle ground isn't necessarily better than either of the alternatives, but I do feel like we have some general insight and sympathy to both the European and the American philosophies. I've also lived as an ex-pat in Europe for 4 years working closely wit…

> I've heard people complain that the cashier at the grocery store asks "How are you doing?". "They don't really care, why do they ask!" Uggghhhh, I loath being asked that. Firstly, the staff are forced to say it as part of their job and they are checked. It’s inhuman to make someone do that. Also it fucks with my head - now I feel forced to do some interaction to lessen the evil of their work day (it is always shitt…

> > especially if it's only reserved for the local in-group, see: southern "hospitality"

> can you explain that?

I think you touched upon it in your last paragraph acknowledging being white and kiwi.

It is such an overwhelming force of human friendliness and welcomeness, that you assume it must be genuine human connection.

Except try being gay, black, or an atheist, and see how quickly all that turns...

As far as the rest of your points, I think you're exaggerating a bit. Most people (at least in north america) don't mind being micro-friendly as part of a service job. Sure, yes, it's "required", but the ratio of monstrous leering arseholes is not high, and while it's tiring to be friendly by the end of a long workday at a grocery store, people don't feel it to be a fundamentally dehumanizing act.

I think the bigger problem with tipping is situations where it allows employers to pay less than minimum wage - that is abhorent. Getting a tip shouldn't be a requirement to get to a living wage. But as an incentive to being a little more engaged with your job? I think it's good.

> Edit: in my experience Canadians and New Zealanders have similar outlooks.

We are alike in many ways. We both live in the shadow of a larger, brasher arrogant power who dismisses us, and people on the other side of the world lump us in together with them.

But no, when it comes to restaurants, service culture, tipping, and micro-friendliness in public Canadians are much closer to Americans than to New Zealanders.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#264

Post by im_down_w_otp » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 3:14 AM UTC

butwhywhyoh wrote: post #234

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to see "toxic positivity" as an attempt to gaslight people, but with the presumption of good intentions, and that presumption of good intentions somehow washing away the deleterious effects of gaslighting people. Somewhat unsurprisingly it turns out it's the gaslighting that's the problem, not entirely the motivation for engaging in it. My experience has been that high-performing people gravitate toward being…

I don't think you said the word "gaslighting" enough times.

I can't tell if you're gaslighting me or not.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#265

Post by hda2 » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 3:16 AM UTC

This reminds me of the Rust "community". They exhibit a lot of this toxic positivity, often to the determent of the discussion. I wonder what drives people to harm themselves and others like this.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#266

Post by conanbatt » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 3:54 AM UTC

andreygrehov wrote: post #51

There are at least two things that annoy the hell out of me: 1 Fake positivity 2 Co-workers that are "happy" to work during PTOs The first one is described in the article. The second one is somewhat related to the first one or could even be the result of fake positivity. Working during a paid time off (PTO) is terrible for culture – makes your co-workers feel guilty if they won't spend a few hours at work during thei…

I straight up thing its non-sensical to have PTO at all. IF you need time off, you take time unpaid time off and that's it. Why would the employer need to worry about your leisure at all?

It's a vestige from another era. The people that dont have bargaining power do not get PTO, and the ones that do get some sort mandated vacation time or economically punished otherwise by lower wages or higher taxation.

Working during PTO is bad, but it would be better for everyone to not have PTO at all, just TO.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#267

Post by mbrodersen » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 4:12 AM UTC

danielscrubs wrote: post #207

ChuckMcM wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of insight in the parent comment here. Most importantly this: "...there seems to be two camps of people: those who want constant positive reinforcement and those who it completely has the opposite effect ..." If you are leading and or managing a team, one of the most important things you need to know are how do people want their feedback. My experience is that it varies from person to person (I suspect that the…

“We need to work harder” is not the kind of manager I like. The best ones just set a great example and work harder and put in overtime themselves and the rest of the team are usually are sympathetic enough to follow.

Overtime is a sign that the team is badly managed and/or understaffed.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#268

Post by mbrodersen » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 4:18 AM UTC

SkyPuncher wrote: post #83

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #8

I've felt a lot of "false" positivity espoused by project managers, especially those in charge of agile ceremonies. Examples: "I'm really {proud,impressed} of all of you for your output this sprint", "You guys are {killing,crushing,owning} it", "You all should be very proud of what you guys did", etc. These aren't given after periods of crunch time, they're literally every week to the point where it feels so contrive…

"You guys are {killing,crushing,owning} it" I say this to my team a lot, even though they're operating as "expected" levels for my company. The reality is there are a lot of teams and a lot of companies that simply do not expect much from their teams. We do. I want to remind the team that they are doing good work. When people have confidence they're doing a good job, they're more likely to continue to do a good job.

Whatever you do, never ever pretend to be somebody you are not or fake praise when it isn’t sincere. Smart developers will instantly loose respect for you and write you off as personified BS.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#269

Post by kovac » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 4:29 AM UTC

caturopath wrote: post #74

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #8

I've felt a lot of "false" positivity espoused by project managers, especially those in charge of agile ceremonies. Examples: "I'm really {proud,impressed} of all of you for your output this sprint", "You guys are {killing,crushing,owning} it", "You all should be very proud of what you guys did", etc. These aren't given after periods of crunch time, they're literally every week to the point where it feels so contrive…

I was so taken back by this when I joined a huge tech company for the first time. I couldn't tell at first whether people were so miscalibrated that they couldn't tell that the work wasn't impressive or whether it was just a tradition to bullshit all the time. So many of the exaggerated positive statements are about things so minor that they actually come of a bit condescending to me.

Same here. In fact, I've more or less stopped reading emails, listening to speeches from higher ups because there's literally no useful information in those other than empty, abstract phrases. One of those experiences was a series of bullshit praises over many months followed by a company wide retrenchment (not because of covid).

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#270

Post by mbrodersen » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 4:31 AM UTC

alexchamberlain wrote: post #112

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #8

I've felt a lot of "false" positivity espoused by project managers, especially those in charge of agile ceremonies. Examples: "I'm really {proud,impressed} of all of you for your output this sprint", "You guys are {killing,crushing,owning} it", "You all should be very proud of what you guys did", etc. These aren't given after periods of crunch time, they're literally every week to the point where it feels so contrive…

Our 2 groups seem to be split down the Atlantic: the US folks love the clapping and positive reinforcement, the europeans seem to roll their eyes. (Generalisation ofc)

Yep agree I have noticed this as well. Not just in this post. Americans in general seems to spend a lot of time telling everybody how great they and/or their team and/or their country is and how hard working they are etc. independently of reality. Trump is a perfect example of this. You could almost call Trump the personification of American culture pushed to the extreme.