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Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

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Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#81
post #74
post #34

> I received an automated email confirming that the review had been successful around 2 hours after that fact. No clarification was given about what caused the problem in the first place. ... We never properly established the cause of the issue, but we chalked it up to some AI tripping on acid at Google's HQ. I expect more of this Kafkaesque experience to come in the future. This is no longer a technical problem, but…

Author here. The second time around, the review confirmation email took around 12 hours to get to us.

Thank you for posting all the info here. And I’m glad that you managed to fix the problem. I think it must have caused you a lot of stress.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#82

After years of seeing developments like this, getting worse and worse, it fills me with rage to think about how clearly nobody in power at Google cares. I naively used to think, "they probably don't realize what's happening and will fix it." I always try to give benefit of the doubt, especially having been on the other side so many times and seeing how 9 times out of 10 it's not malice, just incompetence, apathy, or…

"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" and all that, but after the events and the almost perfectly orchestrated behavior we've seen in the past and last couple of weeks it's becoming increasingly difficult, at least to me, to not attribute this to malice. Probably deliberate negligence is a better term. They know their systems can make mistakes, of course they do, and yet they bui…

Well, I think the stupidity and laziness is exacerbated by their ill will towards customers and users. This is also what prevents them from reforming. The general good will and sense of common purpose was necessary in Google's early days when they portrayed themselves as shepherds of the growth of the web. Now they are more like feudal tax collectors and census takers. Sure they are mostly interested in extracting their click-tolls, but sometimes they just do sadistic stuff because it feels good to hurt people and to be powerful. Any pseudo-religious sense of moral obligation to encourage 'virtuous' web practices has ossified, decayed, been forgotten, or been discarded.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#83
> Proactively claim ownership of all your production domains in Google Search Console.

That's one of the first things you should do, when registering a domain and setting up a website. It takes about 2 minutes. So I wonder a bit why a business of this size would learn doing this through such a crisis.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#84
“Don't host any customer generated data in your main domains. ”

This is extremely important for multiple reasons. One reason is the blacklisting as mentioned in the article, the other reason is security: browser typically implement security policies around domains as well, such as cookie scoping and whatnot. Putting all user generated content under a completely separate domain avoids a whole category of potential issues.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" and all that, but after the events and the almost perfectly orchestrated behavior we've seen in the past and last couple of weeks it's becoming increasingly difficult, at least to me, to not attribute this to malice. Probably deliberate negligence is a better term. They know their systems can make mistakes, of course they do, and yet they bui…

>”never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" I keep reading this on the internet as if it’s some sort of truism, but every situation in life is not a court where a prosecutor is trying to prove intent. There is insufficient time and resources to evaluate each and every circumstance to determine each and every causative factor, so we have to use heuristics to get by and make the best gu…

> I keep reading this on the internet as if it’s some sort of truism

I don’t believe this statement was initially intended to be axiomatic, rather, to serve as a reminder that the injury one is currently suffering is perhaps more likely than not, the result of human frailty.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#86
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. I don't think it's malice on their part, but their hammer is too big to be wielded so carelessly.

Agree, we can only vote with our clicks. Sadly gmail and google docs are top notch products :(

No, we can't vote with our clicks. That's what it means when a handful of companies dominate most of the web and the web playing a dominant role in global economy.

We have very little real choice.

Occasionally people will pretend this is not so. In particular those who can't escape the iron grasp these companies have on the industry. Whose success depends on being in good standing with these companies. Or those whose financial interests strongly align with the fortunes of these dominant players.

I own stock in several of these companies. You could call it hypocrisy, or you could even view it as cynicism. I choose to see it as realism. I have zero influence over what the giants do, and I do have to manage my modest investments in the way that makes the most financial sense. These companies have happened to be very good investments over the last decade.

And I guess I am not alone in this.

I guess what most of us are waiting for is the regulatory bodies to take action. So we don't have to make hard choices. Governments can make a real difference. That they so far haven't made any material difference with their insubstantial mosquito bites doesn't mean we don't hold out some hope they might. One day. Even though the chances are indeed very nearly zero.

What's the worst that can happen to these companies? Losing an antitrust lawsuit? Oh please. There are a million ways to circumvent this even if the law were to come down hard on them. They can appeal, delay, confuse and wear down entire governments. If they are patient enough they can even wait until the next election - either hoping, or greasing the skids, for a more "friendly" government.

They do have the power to curate the reality perceived by the masses. Let's not forget that.

Eventually, like any powerful industry they will have lobbyists write the laws they want, and their bought and paid for politicians drip them into legislation as innocent little riders.

We can't vote with our clicks. We really can't in any way that matters.

That being said, I also would like regulatory bodies to step in and do something about it. To level the playing field. If nothing else, to create more investment opportunities.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#87

I think another take away from this article is “don’t allow users to upload malicious files that you then host from your domain” This seems easier to do than jumping domains.

> I think another take away from this article is “don’t allow users to upload malicious files to your domain” I disagree, at which point did we all accept Google's role as defacto regulator and arbiter of the Internet? Why should we tacitly accept the constraints they deem as appropriate and modify the way we build the web? In other words, those are our domains, our apps, our systems and we'll do as we please; that i…

When you installed their browser.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#88
This is an area where regulatory action should be taken against Google. Google needs to implement a process with manual review in a reasonable timeframe, or they should be broken up for having monopolistic power over which sites are on the internet.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#89

After years of seeing developments like this, getting worse and worse, it fills me with rage to think about how clearly nobody in power at Google cares. I naively used to think, "they probably don't realize what's happening and will fix it." I always try to give benefit of the doubt, especially having been on the other side so many times and seeing how 9 times out of 10 it's not malice, just incompetence, apathy, or…

"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" and all that, but after the events and the almost perfectly orchestrated behavior we've seen in the past and last couple of weeks it's becoming increasingly difficult, at least to me, to not attribute this to malice. Probably deliberate negligence is a better term. They know their systems can make mistakes, of course they do, and yet they bui…

I'd add to this that willfully refusing to remedy stupid can be an act of malice.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#90

I think another take away from this article is “don’t allow users to upload malicious files that you then host from your domain” This seems easier to do than jumping domains.

I think the author highlights the main issue at the end of the article. This is where pressure needs to be applied. I get it, Google’s process probably protects a lot of end users from malicious sites. Getting a real business added to this blocklist by a bot though is not cool. Perhaps a process to whitelist your own domains if this power can’t be wrangled from Google. > Google literally controls who can access your…

> Getting a real business added to this blocklist by a bot though is not cool.

Real businesses can (and often do) host malware too. There was a notable event where php.net was hacked and hosting malware, which Google flagged. The owner of php.net was pretty mad at first and claimed it was a false positive. It wasn't.

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