Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#41

Post by heipei » Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

heybrendan wrote: post #29

Can anyone "in the know" objectively comment if Google Safe Browsing (GSB) has had a net positive result or outcome for the Internet, at large? Has GSB helped users, more than it has hurt them? The anti-Google rhetoric [on HN] is becoming more tiresome as of late. Personally, I welcome the notifications in my browsers that a domain is unsafe. I can't possibly be the only one.

I think GSB is great because there is no other product like it, it is very fast to respond to most threats and it can be used for free. The only thing about it that's not great is, in typical fashion, the lack of transparency about some of the processes. Not about how phishing verdicts are created, this should remain a closely guarded secret, but about what actually happens when you send a report or send a review request.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#42

Post by anovikov » Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 3:38 PM UTC

ptero wrote: post #26

This is not new; such things happened many times in the past (25 years ago Microsoft was the behemoth trampling small companies) and will happen again. I do not think Google is doing it consciously -- this is probably just collateral damage from some bot or rule. The way to handle it is to reduce dependencies on the cloud. This does not mean cutting cloud services altogether, but once the company is big enough (and t…

Yeah i read stories that Yahoo in 1990s called itself a media company and it's product managers "producers" out of fear that once you call yourself a software company - Microsoft will crush you...

As for using clouds - there is absolutely no point in the world to use them for anything above staging level, or very very low level launches. People should switch away from cloud as soon as they see even tentative signs of a product-market fit.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#43

Post by gomox » Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 3:38 PM UTC

heybrendan wrote: post #29

Can anyone "in the know" objectively comment if Google Safe Browsing (GSB) has had a net positive result or outcome for the Internet, at large? Has GSB helped users, more than it has hurt them? The anti-Google rhetoric [on HN] is becoming more tiresome as of late. Personally, I welcome the notifications in my browsers that a domain is unsafe. I can't possibly be the only one.

Author here. It's not really rhetoric, I wrote the post because it's downright scary that your business of over 10 years can vanish in a puff of smoke because Google didn't bother to require an offending URL field in an internet-wide blacklist. At the level they operate, there needs to be a semblance of due process.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#44

Post by freedomben » Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 3:38 PM UTC

jdsalaro wrote: post #38

freedomben wrote: post #20

After years of seeing developments like this, getting worse and worse, it fills me with rage to think about how clearly nobody in power at Google cares. I naively used to think, "they probably don't realize what's happening and will fix it." I always try to give benefit of the doubt, especially having been on the other side so many times and seeing how 9 times out of 10 it's not malice, just incompetence, apathy, or…

"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" and all that, but after the events and the almost perfectly orchestrated behavior we've seen in the past and last couple of weeks it's becoming increasingly difficult, at least to me, to not attribute this to malice. Probably deliberate negligence is a better term. They know their systems can make mistakes, of course they do, and yet they bui…

Thanks, I totally agree. Just to be clear I'm not saying it's malice as I don't believe that. I'm just saying the end result is the same so one should consider them a hostile actor for purposes of threat modeling.

Given you're the second person who I think took away that I was accusing them of malice, I probably need to reword my post a bit to reduce confusion.

Accusing them of malice is irresponsible without evidence, and if I were doing that it would undermine my credibility (which is why I'm pointing this out).

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#45

Post by whamtet3 » Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 3:38 PM UTC

exabrial wrote: post #17

We seriously need to break up Google. This is a chokepoint for innovation, should not be controlled by one company, and has serious downstream consequences on economic growth as a nation.

As a planet you mean.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#46

Post by JPKab » Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 3:39 PM UTC

gomox wrote: post #23

freedomben wrote: post #20

After years of seeing developments like this, getting worse and worse, it fills me with rage to think about how clearly nobody in power at Google cares. I naively used to think, "they probably don't realize what's happening and will fix it." I always try to give benefit of the doubt, especially having been on the other side so many times and seeing how 9 times out of 10 it's not malice, just incompetence, apathy, or…

Author here. I don't think it's malice on their part, but their hammer is too big to be wielded so carelessly.

Great article. It’s not malice, it’s indifference.

Googles execs and veeps don’t care about small businesses, because most are career ladder climbers who went straight from elite colleges to big companies. Conformists who won’t ever know what it’s like to be a startup. As a group, empathy isn’t a thing for them.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#47

Post by jjoonathan » Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

jdsalaro wrote: post #38

freedomben wrote: post #20

After years of seeing developments like this, getting worse and worse, it fills me with rage to think about how clearly nobody in power at Google cares. I naively used to think, "they probably don't realize what's happening and will fix it." I always try to give benefit of the doubt, especially having been on the other side so many times and seeing how 9 times out of 10 it's not malice, just incompetence, apathy, or…

"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" and all that, but after the events and the almost perfectly orchestrated behavior we've seen in the past and last couple of weeks it's becoming increasingly difficult, at least to me, to not attribute this to malice. Probably deliberate negligence is a better term. They know their systems can make mistakes, of course they do, and yet they bui…

They probably aren't malicious, but they are definitely antagonists.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#48

Post by heybrendan » Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

gomox wrote: post #43

heybrendan wrote: post #29

Can anyone "in the know" objectively comment if Google Safe Browsing (GSB) has had a net positive result or outcome for the Internet, at large? Has GSB helped users, more than it has hurt them? The anti-Google rhetoric [on HN] is becoming more tiresome as of late. Personally, I welcome the notifications in my browsers that a domain is unsafe. I can't possibly be the only one.

Author here. It's not really rhetoric, I wrote the post because it's downright scary that your business of over 10 years can vanish in a puff of smoke because Google didn't bother to require an offending URL field in an internet-wide blacklist. At the level they operate, there needs to be a semblance of due process.

Updated my post to make it more clear I was referring to HN and not your post specifically.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#49

Post by lrossi » Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

heybrendan wrote: post #29

Can anyone "in the know" objectively comment if Google Safe Browsing (GSB) has had a net positive result or outcome for the Internet, at large? Has GSB helped users, more than it has hurt them? The anti-Google rhetoric [on HN] is becoming more tiresome as of late. Personally, I welcome the notifications in my browsers that a domain is unsafe. I can't possibly be the only one.

What about false positives?

From the fine article: one Google system was detecting emails coming from another Google system as phishing. This is ridiculous.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#50

Post by kevmo » Sat, Jan 16, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #20

After years of seeing developments like this, getting worse and worse, it fills me with rage to think about how clearly nobody in power at Google cares. I naively used to think, "they probably don't realize what's happening and will fix it." I always try to give benefit of the doubt, especially having been on the other side so many times and seeing how 9 times out of 10 it's not malice, just incompetence, apathy, or…

They're never gonna care. They aren't incentivized to care. The only thing that can change the situation is the power of the American federal government, which needs to break Alphabet into 20-50 different companies.