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Why cancer cells waste so much energy

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Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wish people were more aware of how common pre-cancer cells are. Generally speaking, there are about eight major functional changes in the cell needed to go from 'cell' to 'cancer cell', and on average, each takes about a decade to occur. When I first learned about this at the age of 20, I already had a bunch of cells that were 2/8 of the way to cancer, essentially. (Not counting mutations I was already born with…

", there are about eight major functional changes in the cell needed to go from 'cell' to 'cancer cell'" Can you summarize them, if you haven't done so elsewhere? Anyway thanks. And you should consider writing a book about it ..

(5) Tissue Invasion.

Solid cells generally sit on a foundation called basement membrane. Tissue invasion means "fuck basement membrane, I'm cutting through it and getting into the sewer pipes (blood vessels) below!"

This actually has two consequences. One is that, well, it's not really cancer until it can escape its original confines - then it's just a pre-cancerous growth. There are a lot of cellular proliferative conditions that will get big, but never go anywhere (e.g., uterine fibromas). These can still cause problems due to displacement of normal tissues, but not of the "I'm all over the body and munching happily away" variety.

The other implication of this step, though, is another type of immortality. Being detached from the basement membrane is one of those cell suicide signals we discussed earlier. So if you can successfully invade the membrane and dig into tissue, the implication is "I'm no longer sensitive to the basement membrane's cell-death signals." These signals overlap and tie into the cell-suicide signals mentioned above. None of these things are completely walled off from the others.

(6) Limitless replicative potential.

Normal cells are limited in their ability to replicate. Every time they do, there is a bit of their DNA that degrades on the ends. In order to compensate, there's a little end-cap, like the plastic aglet on a shoelace, that is there to be sacrificed. Those are called telomeres. Cancers will develop runaway enzymes for restoring those telomeres, so that they never run out of runway for cell replication.

There are other mechanisms in there that make it more complicated, though - we know this because some creatures have much longer telomeres than we do, but not proportionately more cancer (rabbits, if memory serves.)

This also gives rise to some of the weirdness in cancer research. We need immortal cell lines to do standardized research (so everyone is using the same baseline), but by being immortal they are fundamentally abnormal. The HeLa (Henrietta Lacks) cell line of recent fame is one of these immortalized cell lines. (Worth noting: at least in my lab, it wasn't hard to immortalize a cell line if needed. HeLa was unique only in that it was used early enough to become ubiquitous and set a standard - not that there's anything otherwise noteworthy about that particular handful of cells. They're the USB of cells.)

(7) Avoiding immune destruction.

There's overlap between all of these categories. Some of the ways your immune system kills pre-cancer cells are the pathways we broke above: the immune system might trigger apoptosis directly or indirectly, for instance. A cell-killer (CD8+ cytotoxic cell) will attack with an enzyme called 'granzyme', that explicitly tries to trigger apoptosis!

But there are other ways for the immune system to kill, and to be evaded. For instance, cells all express what's called "MHC 1". It's like the inspection sticker on your car. It take samples of intracellular proteins and shoves them up onto the cell surface for inspection by the immune system. If they're unusual, the immune system binds to them and kills the cell. So, not surprisingly, there are some cancers that downregulate MHC 1 - parking your car in your driveway so no one sees the expired sticker. This is common, I believe, in lung cancers. You can also see defects in the machinery that gets proteins to MHC 1; you can increase expression of "come hither" signals for immune suppressing cells (e.g., Regulatory T Cells, and Myeloid-derived suppressor cells); or secretion of immune suppressing molecules directly (e.g., TGF-Beta, IL-10, and VEGF). If VEGF sounds familiar, I should point out it's the signal for growing new blood vessels above.

(That's not a coincidence. Healing a wound requires quieting the inflammation that preceded the healing.)

New research in cancer vaccines is focusing on how to either restore the immunogenic environment, or to use alternative pathways. For instance, the toll-like receptor pathway doesn't usually play much of a role in developing cancer, so it's usually intact - so one of the new strategies that's being worked on is how to activate that pathway in response to cancers. And, we have drugs that target some of the elements here! For instance, those T-Regs express the cell surface marker CD25, which we can hit with a drug called daclizumab (I hope I got that spelled right - small molecule and monoclonal names are all gibberish.)

(8) Tumor-Promoting Inflammation. This wasn't a separate hallmark when I was a wee baby: the inflammatory signals promote cell proliferation, they can make blood vessels leaky, they can make blood vessels dilate (the combination means lots of yummy blood to feed a tumor). Inflammation also brings in lots of tumor-killing signals. "Tumor-promoting inflammation" is basically "everything I described above." So, I don't know, maybe something unique has been found here over time that I missed out on as the field evolved? Or not - all of these have grey areas of overlap.

(9) Genome instability and mutation.

Cancer cells, by virtue of shedding their DNA-protecting mechanism (cell death if the DNA is damaged too much) and going into rapid division, break the absolute shit out of their DNA. Not just the run-of-the-mill "oh, mutations accrue" type of breakage. I mean chromosomes are breaking and reattaching and breaking again, centromeres are all over the place, it's a shit show. This is a normal karyotype (image of the chromosomes as a whole): https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.scienc...

This is the karyotype of a breast cancer cell: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.resear...

This "genome instability" doesn't just allow for rapid evolution - the fact that it can exist without the cell suiciding is a great big flag that this cell has very serious immortality mechanisms in play already.

(10) Deregulated cellular energy metabolism.

All of the stuff regulated above? It regulates, and is regulated by, cellular energy metabolism (which also feeds into various other type of macromolecule metabolisms - so when energy is dysregulated, it's like saying "our entire supply-side market is broken.") Which means dysregulated growth, dysregulated proliferation, etc. This is also a really core pathway - you can't fuck with such elemental life-or-death metabolic pathways without breaking stuff or killing stuff. By the time a cell can dysregulate these pathways (excess free radical generation by way of energy pathways is one of those cell suicide triggers, for instance), it's already shed a lot of its suicide signals and it's just burning through energy without heed for the tissues around it.

I hope that helps.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wish people were more aware of how common pre-cancer cells are. Generally speaking, there are about eight major functional changes in the cell needed to go from 'cell' to 'cancer cell', and on average, each takes about a decade to occur. When I first learned about this at the age of 20, I already had a bunch of cells that were 2/8 of the way to cancer, essentially. (Not counting mutations I was already born with…

> "on a long enough timeline, every cell is a cancer cell." So does that mean for the off chance we live long enough for aging reversal to be developed and affordable we'd still die of cancer? :)

Nah, it just means that:

(a) True cancer cures will be more dynamic than cutting bits off, like very sophisticated immune therapies, or

(b) We'll get really good at replacing cut off bits.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#183
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wish people were more aware of how common pre-cancer cells are. Generally speaking, there are about eight major functional changes in the cell needed to go from 'cell' to 'cancer cell', and on average, each takes about a decade to occur. When I first learned about this at the age of 20, I already had a bunch of cells that were 2/8 of the way to cancer, essentially. (Not counting mutations I was already born with…

> on a long enough timeline, every cell is a cancer cell. Not really true, except in the grandest sense (“humanity is the cancer of Earth”). Which brings up a really interesting question - how can our reproductive system be so good at removing/restoring the effects of cancer & ageing? Why is sperm quality dropping with age but the effect resets after conception?

Okay, that's what I get for trying to be even slightly witty, username notwithstanding.

Some cells never divide, and so theoretically shouldn't become cancerous. They still happen though: myocardium tumors shouldn't happen, but hey, rhabdomyoma. In that case, it's more likely in youth / congenital, because it had to happen via inherited defect rather than one that accrued through cell replication in your lifetime. It is rare, though, and ridiculously rare in adults. Still, "on a long enough timeline...". I mean geeze, let a guy get a tiny bit poetic.

Other cells don't have DNA and don't reproduce, so they shouldn't be eligible (red blood cells.) They still fall into a grey area though: the RBC itself will be dead soon enough and never leave behind cancerous progeny. On the other hand, your bone marrow can absolutely lose its mind and pump out the equivalent of a red blood cell mass, a condition known as polycythemia. You can also have RBCs turn cancerous before they become fully mature and shed their DNA. The erythroblast stage - the late stage of RBC development, the last stage before it chucks its nucleus and becomes disposable - can develop into a leukemia.

Our reproductive system generally keeps its genetic payload cells in stasis for the lifetime, so it doesn't accrue replication errors, as well as sitting behind a protective wall (e.g., the Blood-Testis Barrier) similar to the one that protects the brain. Even in stasis, though, damage accrues - the age of the parent has a direct impact on the likelihood of various congenital disorders.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great questions. 1. We do attempt to attack cancers by reducing their available energy. That's why, at one point, a major field of research in cancer therapeutics was interfering with angiogenesis, because cancers will secrete messengers that help grow them dedicated (if crappy, low-quality) blood vessels. The issue with "starving" them more starkly is that they're very good at getting a share (e.g., forcing the body…

This is fanatics thanks! The inflammation from tumor removal causing cancer cells to awaken is very interesting. I had a partial nephrectomy, so hypothetically my chances of reoccurrence is slightly higher since I had my tumor removed? But of course we couldn’t leave it in either. Is the staging have anything to do with how likely they are to wake up?

It's probably not meaningfully higher - this discovery was made a long time ago, and since then we've had a lot of research into which tumors it's really relevant to, and those tumors now get anti-inflammatory medication as a standard part of treatment to prevent just that from happening.

The staging is just ("just") a reflection of the primary cancer mass, which is really predictive of outcomes. It's generally not directly related to whether these sorts of satellite tumors form, since the above advances. It's mostly at this point a historical point of "this is part of how we figured out how cancer works," and ties into the rationale for some of the now-standard treatments.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#185

Worth noting that unlike the cells of the human body, cancer cells are unable to utilize ketones as an energy source[0][1], hence the benefits of a ketogenic diet. A ketogenic diet can also be ideally coupled with intermittent fasting[2] in order to engage/enhance autophagy within the body. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5842847/ [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6375425/ [2] https://…

Also worth noting that ketogenic diets seem to increase all-cause mortality significantly. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23372809/

I would expect all explicit diets to feature higher mortality, as the correlation with having some sort of health concern (obesity, chronic condition, etc.) is going to be extreme. Skimming the whole study at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555979/ the "compared to what?" question does not appear to be asked or answered. Is it?

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also worth noting that ketogenic diets seem to increase all-cause mortality significantly. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23372809/

I would expect all explicit diets to feature higher mortality, as the correlation with having some sort of health concern (obesity, chronic condition, etc.) is going to be extreme. Skimming the whole study at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555979/ the "compared to what?" question does not appear to be asked or answered. Is it?

They analyzed multiple studies that included 272,216 people, they scored the subjects for LCD (higher score, less carbs). Statistically, the study found an overwhelming (my adjective) correlation that the higher a population scores on the LCD scale, the higher their mortality, showing an average of ~30% higher mortality for those eat a low carb diet.

Pretty much every major study that has done this has found similar results. I linked 4 more large studies below.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect all explicit diets to feature higher mortality, as the correlation with having some sort of health concern (obesity, chronic condition, etc.) is going to be extreme. Skimming the whole study at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555979/ the "compared to what?" question does not appear to be asked or answered. Is it?

They analyzed multiple studies that included 272,216 people, they scored the subjects for LCD (higher score, less carbs). Statistically, the study found an overwhelming (my adjective) correlation that the higher a population scores on the LCD scale, the higher their mortality, showing an average of ~30% higher mortality for those eat a low carb diet. Pretty much every major study that has done this has found similar…

Nod to that. Where I'm going is the possibility of comparing people with "normal" diets and low-carb diets, and thus running the risk of comparing people who do not feel compelled to lose weight for health reasons and those who do. Same story as the various vitamin supplementation paradoxes, which can also be influenced by the fact that people supplementing are more likely to have some pre-existing cause to worry about their health.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't say much about ketogenic diets. Were these diets even high fat?

The literal name of the study is "Low-carbohydrate diets and all-cause mortality: a systematic review and meta-analysis of observational studies". It specifically found " Low-carbohydrate diets were associated with a significantly higher risk of all-cause mortality and they were not significantly associated with a risk of CVD mortality and incidence." Perhaps you are on the "oh but the study does specifically say, "l…

> People don't eat a low carb diet by accident, when they do they often follow the horrible advice given by the many misguided keto diet proponents: eat low carb, high fat, medium protein.

This is not remotely my anecdotal experience. The overwhelming majority of those I know that I have dabbled with low carb ran the bunless burger, chicken wings, bacon, and steak game and I would guess that their macro intake was high protein, medium fat (if that), low carb. The textbook versions are high fat, medium protein, low carb. And seemingly pretty hard to pull off without eating a lot of stuff like salads with a cup of olive oil.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#189
post #22

I've been thinking and came to the conclusion that cancer might be a way of the body to get rid of excess sugar and maybe other toxins. Many cancers seem to respond well when ppl go keto for example

In this thread: Web engineers turned Cancer specialists.

Well I used to do Cancer research at the NCI before going back to software! :)

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with trusting YouTube blindly. I trust my friends and colleagues that have cured their cancer better. Also note that chlorine dioxide is not sodium hypoclorite. It's like comparing salt (which also contains chlorine) with sugar.

>chlorine dioxide is not sodium hypoclorite I wasn't sure what to make of what you said until you dropped this common fallacy used by MMS cultists. All forms of oxidising bleach (chlorine gas, hypochlorite solution, chlorine dioxide, hydrogen peroxide, sodium perborate, etc) take effect by taking electrons from other matter. These reactions are able to "bleach" because pigments are often complex organic molecules whi…

I didn't know anything about MMS before this thread, but I will point out that "don't eat that; it's poisonous" is a poor argument in a cancer debate, since the major treatment for cancer (chemotherapy) is intentional strong poisoning.
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