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Ensuring a transparent, thorough investigation of Covid-19’s origin

state.gov

41–50 of 79 posts

Re: Ensuring a transparent, thorough investigation of Covid-19’s origin

#41
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know how fashionable it is to shit on the USA, at least for another week. But you are implying the CCP does have credibility in their claims this is not true? What advantage do you think the state dept has to put this out if it is not true? The new admin can walk it back in 1/2 a second if that’s the case.

Note that Pompeo is also alleging a link between Iran and al-Qaeda (see the https://www.state.gov home page, for instance), which is another "extraordinary claim" - nobody has been seriously worried about al-Qaeda in a long while, and Iran has not been historically aligned with them. If Pompeo is running for president in 2024, a war with Iran will benefit him in much the same way the war with Iraq (which was based on…

> If Pompeo is running for president in 2024, a war with Iran will benefit him in much the same way the war with Iraq (which was based on untrue claims) benefited Bush.

Was the war Dick Cheney started going years before Bush announced he was running? How would this be comparable at all to Bush/Iraq?

Re: Ensuring a transparent, thorough investigation of Covid-19’s origin

#42
This article discusses how common it is to have accidents/mistakes in these types of research labs, I found it pretty interesting but cannot vouch for it (perhaps it's already been debunked?)

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-esca...

Re: Ensuring a transparent, thorough investigation of Covid-19’s origin

#43
post #33
post #30

People should consider this claim with the same scrutiny as the claim that Russia was behind SolarWinds.

I do find it slightly bizarre that on HN, a website run by ycombinator i.e. Americana, seemingly the Russians always get the benefit of the doubt. Similarly with the President actually. The politics here is quite hard to characterise.

Personally I just give everything the Trump administration says high scrutiny. Just lie after lie, mistruth after mistruth, so that it's hard to believe anything that someone outside them doesn't back up. Especially on computer security... the absolute level of obvious falsehood and idiotic statements from Trump and his supporters about election security would be farcical if it wasn't so destructive to American democracy and democratic norms.

But I believe that, while legitimate election security researchers have all basically said there is no reason to doubt the election or believe there was any sort of widespread fraud or abuse (and such statements conform to what was said in court, where lawyers can face consequences for stating falsehoods), legitimate computer security researchers outside the Trump Administration have pointed to Russia on the Solarwinds hack, so I give that claim more credence.

Re: Ensuring a transparent, thorough investigation of Covid-19’s origin

#44

"The COVID-19 pandemic was avoidable. Any responsible country would have invited world health investigators to Wuhan within days of an outbreak. China instead refused offers of help – including from the United States – and punished brave Chinese doctors, scientists, and journalists who tried to alert the world to the dangers of the virus. Beijing continues today to withhold vital information that scientists need to p…

It's not a political statement if it's factual. Or rather, it's 'always political between states' but the legitimacy of the facts give it credibility.

China's initial dismissal and coverup of the spread of the virus, and their subsequent misinformation and lack of transparency, and finally, their attempts to stop an investigation into COVID origins are really seriously bad things.

To boot - they've made a political appointment to the head of the WHO and have been trying to obtain leverage within that organization of years.

It's actually reasonable that the US demands expulsion of China from the WHO on those grounds, until China plays be the rules. They can't claim 'it's an internal problem' as they always do here. Much like with currency and other things, if they want to be a part of these organizations they have to follow the rules.

Re: Ensuring a transparent, thorough investigation of Covid-19’s origin

#45

At the end of December 2019, A friend had a layover in the business lounge in Seattle on a return flight from Europe to San Francisco. At the same time, a direct flight from Wuhan came in. He spent 3 hours in the lounge waiting for the flight to SFO, ate at the buffet. A few days later, he said he became deathly sick. Fever, coughing, and said he felt like he was going to die. His wife became very sick shortly after…

There are a lot of anecdotal stories like these, but the idea that Covid was circulating widely in the US before January just isn't consistent with the evidence on the ground. Trevor Bedford has written about this several times [1], and he would know, the phylogenetic work he and his team have been doing is one of the most sensitive instruments we have in figuring out how this thing spreads.

So this basically boils down to who to trust, your friend's uncle who works at Nintendo, or a highly regarded evolutionary biologist.

[1]: https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1249414291297464321

Re: Ensuring a transparent, thorough investigation of Covid-19’s origin

#47
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that Pompeo is also alleging a link between Iran and al-Qaeda (see the https://www.state.gov home page, for instance), which is another "extraordinary claim" - nobody has been seriously worried about al-Qaeda in a long while, and Iran has not been historically aligned with them. If Pompeo is running for president in 2024, a war with Iran will benefit him in much the same way the war with Iraq (which was based on…

> If Pompeo is running for president in 2024, a war with Iran will benefit him in much the same way the war with Iraq (which was based on untrue claims) benefited Bush. Was the war Dick Cheney started going years before Bush announced he was running? How would this be comparable at all to Bush/Iraq?

Cheney was Secretary of Defense during the first Iraq war, under the elder Bush: https://history.defense.gov/Multimedia/Biographies/Article-V...

> After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Cheney worried about the dangers of nuclear proliferation and effective control of nuclear weapons from the Soviet nuclear arsenal that had come under the control of newly independent republics-Belarus, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan-as well as in Russia itself. Cheney warned about the possibility that other nations, such as Iraq, Iran, and North Korea, would acquire nuclear components after the Soviet collapse.

and later in that biography:

> A draft Defense Planning Guidance issued early in 1992 envisioned several scenarios in which the United States might have to fight two large regional wars at one time–for example, against Iraq again, against North Korea, or in Europe against a resurgent, expansionist Russia.

Come Cheney's vice presidency, there was all of a sudden talk about an "axis of evil" - Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.

Anyway, obviously Pompeo hasn't announced, but there is widespread speculation based on concrete actions by him - see e.g. https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-12-09/mi... - so I don't think it's unreasonable for me to say "If Pompeo is running."

And the most direct way it would be comparable to Bush/Iraq is that it would falsely allege that al-Qaeda is linked to the government of a Middle Eastern country and use it as an excuse for regime change in that country.

Re: Ensuring a transparent, thorough investigation of Covid-19’s origin

#48

This article discusses how common it is to have accidents/mistakes in these types of research labs, I found it pretty interesting but cannot vouch for it (perhaps it's already been debunked?) https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-esca...

This article is bullshit and real virologists are angry it's getting so much attention: https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/13462321954305105...

You may or may not have noticed, but there are some real problems we should be thinking about, including the very real probability that the B.1.1.7 variant is going to be much harder to suppress, and how to get our vaccination program on track. Instead we end up talking about these distractions that have much more speculation than evidence behind them.

Re: Ensuring a transparent, thorough investigation of Covid-19’s origin

#49
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The truth track record of State Department is still much better than that of CCP. Maybe over the long run, but maybe not the current State Department at this moment. IIRC, over the last month it's literally been trying to stir up shit however it can to make things difficult for the incoming Biden administration. The current administration seems to think it makes sense to burn US national credibility for petty, self…

> it's literally been trying to stir up shit however it can to make things difficult for the incoming Biden administration Examples, please? Pompeo certainly taking a more hawkish and strident stance of late, but I’m yet to see anything that suggests they’re salting the earth rather than just trying to ram through some policy aims at the end of an administration

Jan. 9:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/politics/state-dept-ta...

> WASHINGTON — The United States said on Saturday that it would relax its restrictions on interactions between American officials and their counterparts in Taiwan as the Trump administration seeks to lock in a tougher line against Beijing in its final days.

> ...The moves, some outside experts said, are meant to lay a trap for Mr. Biden, forcing him either to pay a domestic political cost if he unwinds them or to sour relations with Beijing if he does not.

Jan. 11:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/politics/cuba-terroris...

> WASHINGTON — The State Department designated Cuba a state sponsor of terrorism on Monday in a last-minute foreign policy stroke that will complicate the incoming Biden administration’s plans to restore friendlier relations with Havana.

> ...On the campaign trail, President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr. spoke of a return to Mr. Obama’s more open approach to Havana, pledging to “promptly reverse the failed Trump policies that have inflicted harm on the Cuban people and done nothing to advance democracy and human rights.”

> While the Biden administration can remove Cuba from the terrorism list, doing so will require a review process that could take months.

Jan 12:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/us/politics/pompeo-iran-q...

> WASHINGTON — Al Qaeda’s new base of operations is in Iran, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said on Tuesday, using his last days in office to tie together two of what he called the world’s greatest terrorism threats but offering no underlying intelligence as evidence.

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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/14/opinion/mike-pompeo-state...

> But Mr. Pompeo has not been idle. Over the past week, he unleashed a series of actions whose only real purpose appears to be to make life as difficult as possible for his successor at the State Department. He put Cuba back on the list of state sponsors of terrorism, he plans to designate the Houthi rebels in Yemen as a foreign terrorist organization, he eased restrictions on contacts between American diplomats and Taiwan officials and he claimed that Iran is a “home base” for Al Qaeda.

> ...Some of the actions Mr. Pompeo took over the past week might be defensible, were they taken in the context of a coherent foreign policy. But coming days before a change in administration, their sole identifiable purpose is to maliciously plant obstacles — some commentators have called them time bombs or booby traps — before the incoming administration and President-elect Joe Biden’s choice for Mr. Pompeo’s successor at State, Antony Blinken, are in place.

Re: Ensuring a transparent, thorough investigation of Covid-19’s origin

#50

I like Carl Bergstrom's take on this: I have reason to believe that if the outgoing administration claims to have reason to believe something but refuses to provide the evidence behind it, they are lying. https://twitter.com/CT_Bergstrom/status/1350292056782954498 Here's a very serious, legitimate review of the possible origins of SARS-CoV-2: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-01205-5 Unfortunately, from my e…

Maybe if authorities were a bit more neutral. Some plausible options were ruled out from day 1, without any investigation.

And words like "empirical facts" and "independent review" in context of China, do not add much credibility.

If virus has natural origin, we should be able to find population of infected bats. Until then it is just another unproven theory.

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