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State of JavaScript 2020

2020.stateofjs.com

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Re: State of JavaScript 2020

#41

Post by Pfhreak »

systemvoltage wrote: post #28
Pfhreak wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked in front end and backend systems. I've worked with extremely high scale web services at FAANG. I've made videogames, and done data processing pipelines. In general, I find that people will look at the domain outside of their area of expertise and say, "Holy shit, how do you work like this?" All the front end devs are like, "You have to wait how many minutes for compile times?" for instance. I think the im…

> All the front end devs are like, "You have to wait how many minutes for compile times?" for instance. This is a shocking argument coming from any front end dev. Since when is static type checking, working on serious big repositories that take time to compile, have proper architecture with hundreds if not thousands of programmers working on it comparable to 3 frontend folks working on a web application? There is so…

I think you have a fairly dated understanding of what front end is, it's scale, and the complexity of delivering an experience that's fast and well optimized.

These days front end engineering can be every bit as rigorous and complex as back end engineering. The constraints are a bit different, and the environments are very different, but the scale and complexity of engineering is not.

Re: State of JavaScript 2020

#42

Post by cosmotic »

Aldipower wrote: post #32
cosmodisk wrote: post #27

If the healthcare sector would apply the same ideas and principles of the front-end industry, it'd look like this: oh,look, it's a pen! Why don't we combine it with a scalpel and an angle grinder for our next surgery? Front-end is an absolute shit show with all the html/css/js mixture.

You mean _Web_ Front-End. Do not forget Web is delivering to a lot of platforms. Try the same with desktop apps or mobile apps. Good luck.

The trend seems to be using HTML/CSS/JS for "native" app frontends as well, see Electron an the countless apps that use it.

Re: State of JavaScript 2020

#43

Post by Pfhreak »

worble wrote: post #20
Pfhreak wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked in front end and backend systems. I've worked with extremely high scale web services at FAANG. I've made videogames, and done data processing pipelines. In general, I find that people will look at the domain outside of their area of expertise and say, "Holy shit, how do you work like this?" All the front end devs are like, "You have to wait how many minutes for compile times?" for instance. I think the im…

>All the front end devs are like, "You have to wait how many minutes for compile times?" for instance. This is funny because waiting for typescript to build is probably double or even triple waiting for my .NET project to compile at this point. I swear it gets slower every update.

I'm not familiar with TS compile times, most of the engineers I know working on FE code use JS.

Re: State of JavaScript 2020

#44

Post by cosmodisk »

Aldipower wrote: post #32
cosmodisk wrote: post #27

If the healthcare sector would apply the same ideas and principles of the front-end industry, it'd look like this: oh,look, it's a pen! Why don't we combine it with a scalpel and an angle grinder for our next surgery? Front-end is an absolute shit show with all the html/css/js mixture.

You mean _Web_ Front-End. Do not forget Web is delivering to a lot of platforms. Try the same with desktop apps or mobile apps. Good luck.

I get it, there's mobile, desktop, even fridges,or doorbells that require front-end interfaces. I also understand it's not easy.im fact it's hard.very hard. But currently it's a shit show nonetheless, because everyone is going their own director with no plan to somehow unify or at least standardise the whole thing. And it's getting more and more absurd every day.

Re: State of JavaScript 2020

#45

Post by [deleted] »

systemvoltage wrote: post #33
fctorial wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no real good books React reference documentation?

Yep, I've resorted to that. But, there is more to docs that's needed to get wisdom from others who've built large apps and getting that in a concise book format would be nice. Otherwise, we can all throw away all books written about any programming topic, right?

[deleted]

Re: State of JavaScript 2020

#46

Post by typeengineering »

systemvoltage wrote: post #33
fctorial wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no real good books React reference documentation?

Yep, I've resorted to that. But, there is more to docs that's needed to get wisdom from others who've built large apps and getting that in a concise book format would be nice. Otherwise, we can all throw away all books written about any programming topic, right?

I know right, I dug up a flex 3 book this new years it was so nice to actually read an actual quality book instead of some docs online.

Re: State of JavaScript 2020

#47

Post by systemvoltage »

Pfhreak wrote: post #41
systemvoltage wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the front end devs are like, "You have to wait how many minutes for compile times?" for instance. This is a shocking argument coming from any front end dev. Since when is static type checking, working on serious big repositories that take time to compile, have proper architecture with hundreds if not thousands of programmers working on it comparable to 3 frontend folks working on a web application? There is so…

I think you have a fairly dated understanding of what front end is, it's scale, and the complexity of delivering an experience that's fast and well optimized. These days front end engineering can be every bit as rigorous and complex as back end engineering. The constraints are a bit different, and the environments are very different, but the scale and complexity of engineering is not.

> I think you have a fairly dated understanding of what front end is

Certainly, as I am finding out. Can you suggest some solid, robust frontend framework that doesn't break in 3 months when I update the dependencies?

Re: State of JavaScript 2020

#48

Post by mr_toad »

systemvoltage wrote: post #6

Cliche rant coming up: as a backend engineer, recently started working on frontend. Is this how yall do things? Everything so far feels less mature, thinly pieced together, barely holding up, fast moving, unnecessarily bloated, and no care for longevity, robustness and discipline. Seems like every thing is on Youtube, no real good books (yeah, go ahead and search for "React JS" books on Amazon and see if you find som…

What’s wrong with MDN and the official React documentation?

I’ve never even considered going to YouTube, of all places, for JavaScript documentation. What’s next, people reacting to JavaScript programming?

Re: State of JavaScript 2020

#49

Post by Pfhreak »

systemvoltage wrote: post #47
Pfhreak wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a fairly dated understanding of what front end is, it's scale, and the complexity of delivering an experience that's fast and well optimized. These days front end engineering can be every bit as rigorous and complex as back end engineering. The constraints are a bit different, and the environments are very different, but the scale and complexity of engineering is not.

> I think you have a fairly dated understanding of what front end is Certainly, as I am finding out. Can you suggest some solid, robust frontend framework that doesn't break in 3 months when I update the dependencies?

Svelte and React would meet the criteria you described. So would Mithril.

Give Svelte a try online, their tutorial page is pretty slick: https://svelte.dev/tutorial/basics

Re: State of JavaScript 2020

#50

Post by systemvoltage »

inopinatus wrote: post #35
systemvoltage wrote: post #6

Cliche rant coming up: as a backend engineer, recently started working on frontend. Is this how yall do things? Everything so far feels less mature, thinly pieced together, barely holding up, fast moving, unnecessarily bloated, and no care for longevity, robustness and discipline. Seems like every thing is on Youtube, no real good books (yeah, go ahead and search for "React JS" books on Amazon and see if you find som…

Unfortunately yes. In all my four decades in tech, code bitrots in the the web front-end environment faster than any other I've yet seen. The Javascript language in particular (and its ecosystem) remains a baroque Gormenghast of curiosities built on an ancient sewer where nightmare beasts still roam, and everyone's holed up in the throne room hoping a few trusted paladins will somehow decontaminate the rest. > How do…

I am struggling with this. I have made an Amazon storefront in React JS + npm package manager after watching this tutorial. I must have deleted the node_modules folder a dozen or more times and if you npm install again, it works! This is the kind of stuff that makes me wonder, how can I make a production worthy app without the fear of not being able to fix the dependencies!?

Took me 2 hours to just to find out that some module wasn't compatible with Node version 15.

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