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Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

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Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#291

Post by TheCoelacanth »

bluGill wrote: post #148
ATsch wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with your concerns about people being kept in their job for unjustified reasons. I think it's something we've all had experience with. At my first job, I had a horrible boss. A friend tried to speak up against him and was promptly fired. Turns out he was a relative of the CEO and was thus unfireable. Just a few weeks ago I also spoke to someone who told his experience of reporting someone for sexual h…

If sexual harassment really exists a lawyer will be glad to help. Companies that don't take care of it end up in big trouble - to your lawyers advantage. Sexual harassment is one of several things that the legal system takes seriously.

That's just objectively false. Look at all the cases of sexual harassment coming out where the perpetrator had been doing it for decades to dozens of people without any consequences.

Getting sexual harassment claims taken seriously is an uphill battle and often harms the careers of the people who complain.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#292

Post by jjj1232 »

dcolkitt wrote: post #285
pmoriarty wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is when anecdotes about isolated abuses are used to reject unions outright rather than looking at whether unions as a whole would benefit society. You could argue from personal experience that you went to a bad school therefore all schools are bad, or you had a bad experience with therefore all people of that sort are bad. It's just not very convincing.

Well, if you look at large-scale carefully controlled data, unionized firms tend to be at least 10% less productive than their non-unionized counterparts.[1] The most defensible thing you can say about this is that the cost is primarily borne by the shareholders rather than the consumers. Thus you tend to see that the best unions for workers tend to be in large, established, highly profitable firms with little to no…

Honestly, 10% is less than I would have thought, and is something I’d trade in a heartbeat for greater benefits.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#293

Post by exolymph »

kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #281
txsoftwaredev wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked painting dorm rooms. Worked cleaning out freezers in an ice cream factory. I've done plenty of crappy manual jobs. But I knew that's what I would get at the time as I was uneducated and unskilled. I was happy to have an income that relied on not needing any skills. Sorry you are annoyed, it's my opinion.

"I've had crappy manual jobs" and "I've been in a situation where crappy manual jobs were my only viable option" are very different situations. But also, why didn't you want more money at the time? Why were you so happy to have a crappy job cleaning out freezers when you could have organized and got a better paying job cleaning out freezers? This future millionaire mindset, where you were "happy to have an income" be…

> "I've had crappy manual jobs" and "I've been in a situation where crappy manual jobs were my only viable option" are very different situations.

?? Why would anyone work a crappy manual job if it weren't their only viable option?

Like, I'm sure there are exceptions but it seems unusual, since if you have better options, you'll pursue those instead.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#295

Post by oarabbus_ »

maxerickson wrote: post #67
oarabbus_ wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right, but they have ways to do it. They'd simply shut down the plant in it's entirety, and open another warehouse far away. They can dress it up as "operational inefficiencies" or "poor location for shipping" etc. The fact the workers were going to unionize? Oh, just a coincidence! We were already planning to shut down our Alabama location anyway.

I would expect that tactic to still require that they give the workers at the facility shutting down similar opportunities to what they have given other employees in the past in similar situations.

And drive a 50+ mile commute daily? None of the workers are going to take them up on that "offer".

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#296

Post by slantaclaus »

tehjoker wrote: post #280
random5634 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

All workers should be in unions. With few exceptions, workers collaborating forms the basis of their power vs management. Management has money and the ability to wait out vs an individual that needs a job. Only groups of employees can successfully negotiate for major concessions outside of rare circumstances. An older tradition that would be even better is unionization on an industrial/sectoral scale so you don't eve…

“All workers should be in unions”: as the owner of a business with 2 employees, I respectfully disagree.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#297

Post by fat_pikachu »

kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #92
LatteLazy wrote: post #39

Can anyone outline what unionisation means in this case? If they vote yes, is everyone at this location required to join? Are amazon required to negotiate with the union? Can amazon simply close the plant? Presumably if unionisation works for these workers (better pay etc) then other centres will follow suit...

Hi, I was a union organizer before I was a software engineer. I'll try answer your questions without much commentary: Is everyone required to join? No. Following Janus, they might not even be required to pay dues. However, the union contract will apply to everyone in the bargaining unit (generally all non-management) regardless of membership. Is Amazon required to negotiate? Yes, they're legally required to make good…

Janus was public sector unions only.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#298

Post by maxerickson »

j_walter wrote: post #249
maxerickson wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has been doing okay using that sort of high level planning, where the government supervises a lot of the economy and limits the movement of capital.

You really think that? Talk to any of the chinese citizens that have fled the country to live elsewhere. Certain parts of how that government runs may look good from afar, but not if you are actually living under their rule.

I don't think the people have it good, but the economy has grown massively for ~40 years running.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#299

Post by boomboomsubban »

dahfizz wrote: post #256
guerrilla wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's not only anecdotes" and giving more anecdotes isn't an argument.

They said "It’s not anecdotes __about isolated abuses__". At a certain point, anecdotes become universal experiences, and therefore inform general political views.

>At a certain point, anecdotes become universal experiences, and therefore inform general political views

In reality though we just went from one anecdote to two. We are unable to tell when something is universal experience just by hearing more anecdotes.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#300

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

wincy wrote: post #284
WalterBright wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reagan's firing of the air traffic controllers It was illegal for the controllers to strike.

It’s pretty smart to make the things that benefit the weak and hurt the powerful illegal.

That argument doesn't hold water when were talking about public sector employees. You don't become a public worker to get rich. Thusly being a public worker, the government can do as they please. And unlike a private company, the government can break the law.
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