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Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

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Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#101
post #66

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

Google and Amazon unions represent quite fundamentally different kinds of organizing principles. The Amazon union is of the much more classical form, is well past due, it's not entirely necessary, but it would be beneficial. I don't actually think that regular Google employees should be unionized, rather, it should be the non-technical staff, contractors and so many people not in privileged positions that should be p…

So whether workers should be allowed to unionize should depend on which changes they are fighting for? Where's the line of powerlessness a union's beneficiaries need to be under in order for the union to be valid in your perspective?

It seems like the main actions taken by the Google employees' union so far have been to push the company to behave more ethically, not to enhance their already-significant (indeed, outrageous) privilege. I see that as using their privileged positions as leverage for positive change, and I hope they succeed.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

Many/most supporters of unions argue that police should not be able to form or join unions. "Cops are not workers" is a common phrase I've seen.

Why only cops and not all public sector employees? I don’t see how you can make an argument that police work isn’t work.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#103
I know that the general consensus seems to be that corporations despise unions because it inhibits their unrestrained profits, but I have a pet theory as to why American corporations specifically avoid unionization whilst other corporations in other Western countries seem to accept it as a reality of doing business.

I view it as a sort of prisoner's dilemma between two corporate boards. As a primer for those who are not familiar, there are two prisoners in solitary confinement who are given the choice of remaining silent or testifying against the other in exchange for being set free. The two prisoners cannot communicate with each other.

* If A and B each betray the other, each of them serves two years in prison

* If A betrays B but B remains silent, A will be set free and B will serve three years in prison

* If A remains silent but B betrays A, A will serve three years in prison and B will be set free

* If A and B both remain silent, both of them will serve only one year in prison (on the lesser charge).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

In my example, the prisoners are presented with two options: unionize, or stay un-unionized.

There are a few tweaks I will make.

I view "prison" as the consequences of picking either option (there is no way to be set free). A short sentence represents the consequences of not unionizing: negative PR, labor lawsuits, and committing moral sins in whatever belief system you subscribe to. A long sentence is the consequence of unionizing: lost profits as wages and benefits are negotiated. A and B's investors will not approve of either getting a long sentence. Lastly, betrayal will be punished, not rewarded.

* If A and B unionize, they will both be sent to prison with long sentences.

* If A betrays B by unionizing but B doesn't, A goes to prison with a long sentence and B gets a short sentence.

* If B betrays A, A gets a short sentence and B gets the long sentence.

* If A and B do not unionize, both of them get the short sentence.

Given these rules, the only logical choice is to not unionize. If A or B unionize, they are hit with the long sentence. Corporations avoid unionization because their investors will punish them.

HOWEVER!

Imagine if A and B unionized, and every other prisoner in the prison also chose to unionize. The investors cannot punish every prisoner, because there is no one else left to invest in! Therefore, the long sentences (lower profits) are simply accepted because there is no way out - no way to avoid the long sentence.

That is why unionization enforced by government succeeds better than voluntary unionization. Investors are forced to accept the low results because they cannot choose to avoid unionized companies in favor of un-unionized ones. However, as long as the ability to avoid unionization exists, investors will do their damnedest to make sure that company boards work against worker movements. The boards must comply regardless of their personal beliefs, because they will lose the game if they allow the company to be unionized.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#104

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

The problem is when anecdotes about isolated abuses are used to reject unions outright rather than looking at whether unions as a whole would benefit society.

You could argue from personal experience that you went to a bad school therefore all schools are bad, or you had a bad experience with therefore all people of that sort are bad.

It's just not very convincing.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

Many/most supporters of unions argue that police should not be able to form or join unions. "Cops are not workers" is a common phrase I've seen.

I take it a step further and reject all public sector unions. Teachers, cops, firemen, dog catchers, you name it.

There’s just too many perverse incentives for politicians to give in to union demands in exchange for buying votes. Unlike the private sector, the ones agreeing to the union demands care little about the long term costs associated since they’re not the ones paying them.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#106
post #50
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just one comment on this: > Teachers unions may care more about teachers ... That's precisely the point of a union. It's an organization to protect its members. It's the purpose of the school system overall, including principals, school boards, and so on, to care about teaching kids.

The #1 concern with a school should be the children, not the teachers. Public schools bend-over-backwards to help the teachers over the students. Public schools have remained essentially unchanged for 120 years - one teacher divulging knowledge to a room of kids in silent observation. Nothing will change when unions are in control - they have absolutely no incentive.

I'm honestly kind of surprised to see the teacher union hate in this thread.

The teachers that I know work tirelessly, don't make very much money, and do literally everything they can to help students. This is doubly true during the past year when they've had to re work plans so that they work over zoom or in person.

I think perhaps the point of friction is that all of this is true and the city can't afford to pay them more, so they get other concessions.

I fundamentally disagree with your claim about lack of innovation - in a public high school 15 years ago your story doesn't ring true, much less seeing my friends who are teachers talking about lesson plans today.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#107
post #69
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just one comment on this: > Teachers unions may care more about teachers ... That's precisely the point of a union. It's an organization to protect its members. It's the purpose of the school system overall, including principals, school boards, and so on, to care about teaching kids.

Teachers and police officers are public servants. If they want to bargain, they should be negotiating with the public, not government officials. Otherwise, it's just collusion.

If not with government officials, i.e. the executive part of the system taking care of public concerns, how should they negotiate with "the public"?

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#108

I wonder what percentage of otherwise very liberal Amazon devs read sentences like "The company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." and come away thinking "we're definitely the good guys."

Why would you think any of us think that?

Well, let's see some solidarity with the warehouse rank and file to prove it.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

Many/most supporters of unions argue that police should not be able to form or join unions. "Cops are not workers" is a common phrase I've seen.

I'd say they are allowed to have unions, local governments just need to be able to exert meaningful oversight even with the unions.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#110

Is it going to be a proper union or a political tool for alt-left ideals (like Google's recent unionization attempt)?

I don't know what the alt-left is, but I imagine these extremely exploited workers are going to focus on their terrible working conditions.
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