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Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

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Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#81

Post by Sodman »

WitCanStain wrote: post #40
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #26

I asked this in the google union thread, but was too late to the party to get any answers. Copy pasting it here: Everybody here seems to agree that unions have the potential to do good or bad in every thread on it. The next logical step to me is that there needs to be a selection mechanism in place. For companies, the selection mechanism is competition. If someone else does better, the consumer or worker can choose s…

>Is there such a mechanism for unions? Unions should be democratic. The workers in the union should collectively decide how it is run, and it should have a fairly flat hierarchical structure. So if you feel that your union does not sufficiently represent your interests, you can get rid of the leadership and change the union for the better. As opposed to companies where you essentially have the choice to tolerate it o…

The problem is that democracy is imperfect, it can be (and is) frequently gamed and manipulated. Many people are worried about the following scenario:

- Software engineers unionize

- Some "bad" rules get implemented, perhaps passing vote by misleading slogans or over-represented groups etc. Maybe it was a narrow 51% vs 49% vote.

- Top talent leaves, over time that 51% in favor of the bad rules becomes a larger and larger majority

- Now your option is essentially tolerate it or leave if you don't like what's happening. So it's the same as before, except now you owe union dues.

- "Top talent" starts new company that's more focused on "work" and has fewer rules.

- Company grows...

- Software engineers unionize... repeat

When I say "bad rules" I'm thinking things that are the software equivalent to existing union rules like "Only union members can plug in that HDMI cable" etc etc.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#82

Post by Mountain_Skies »

vdnkh wrote: post #22
nostromo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: does the Democratic Party care about labor anymore? It feels like anti-Trumpism, identity issues (race, trans issues, etc.), and immigration have sucked all the oxygen out of the room. I can’t remember the last time I saw a Democrat run with supporting labor as their headline issue.

On the off chance you're serious, here's Biden's union stance https://joebiden.com/empowerworkers/ .

Actions > Words

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#83

Post by pmoriarty »

j_walter wrote: post #12
simpixelated wrote: post #5

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

Unions in the US and unions is Europe are completely different. In one they cooperate to see that the company succeeds...and in the other they seek to drive up the cost of doing business to the point that shitty products are extremely expensive (GM, Ford). Unions used to be for protecting the workers and ensuring that companies were getting the very best skillsets when hiring. Now they protect the lazy, promote the w…

"Port of Portland is now shuttered because they intentionally slowed down work to the point of forcing companies to go elsewhere."

Unions should be everywhere, so these companies could not escape them by relocating.

Capital trying to feel the country should also be taxed heavily for the same reason.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#84

Post by rjbwork »

pydry wrote: post #33
nostromo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: does the Democratic Party care about labor anymore? It feels like anti-Trumpism, identity issues (race, trans issues, etc.), and immigration have sucked all the oxygen out of the room. I can’t remember the last time I saw a Democrat run with supporting labor as their headline issue.

I rather thought that the function of these other issues was to suck the oxygen out of the room so they didn't have to talk about labor issues. Their donors tend to be wealthy and anti-union.

Generally the point of most social wedge issues from the point of view of the moneyed and political elite is to not have to talk about any kind of economic issues that affect the bulk of society, yes.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#85

Post by underseacables »

jariel wrote: post #71
random5634 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

Unions are like corporations - there is good and bad, benefits and drawbacks. One thing I've noticed, is that where 'new unions' are forming, there is' probably a good reason for it.

There is no good reason for it. Employees at top companies are forming unions because they think that will allow them to say whatever they want on the job, and if Google says no don’t talk about politics at work it creates tension and conflict, they will say sorry where are union you have to listen to us now. It’s spoiled, overpaid techies upset they can’t use work time to preach political and social issues.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#86

Post by rileymat2 »

aerosmile wrote: post #59
Frondo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just one comment on this: > Teachers unions may care more about teachers ... That's precisely the point of a union. It's an organization to protect its members. It's the purpose of the school system overall, including principals, school boards, and so on, to care about teaching kids.

The point that the OP is making is that the negative propaganda against unions is not just entirely made up, but also something that many people with kids in school have experienced first-hand. This does factor in when that same parent then goes to their workplace and is pitched to form/join a union. I am not saying they won't agree to it, but they might remember the negative aspects of dealing with the concept of a…

It is very rare that the best propaganda is made up. The best is true but incomplete, anecdotal in this case.

To hold up it must be true, but misleading.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#87

Post by kube-system »

jandrese wrote: post #70
seibelj wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The #1 concern with a school should be the children, not the teachers. Public schools bend-over-backwards to help the teachers over the students. Public schools have remained essentially unchanged for 120 years - one teacher divulging knowledge to a room of kids in silent observation. Nothing will change when unions are in control - they have absolutely no incentive.

It's a strange system we live in where teachers get fired at the drop of a hat for seemingly innocuous offenses like teaching evolution or breaking up a fight, while also being absolutely untouchable.

That's because it's not "a system", schooling in the US is thousands of systems.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#88

Post by tyre »

underseacables wrote: post #85
jariel wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are like corporations - there is good and bad, benefits and drawbacks. One thing I've noticed, is that where 'new unions' are forming, there is' probably a good reason for it.

There is no good reason for it. Employees at top companies are forming unions because they think that will allow them to say whatever they want on the job, and if Google says no don’t talk about politics at work it creates tension and conflict, they will say sorry where are union you have to listen to us now. It’s spoiled, overpaid techies upset they can’t use work time to preach political and social issues.

Read anything about amazon working conditions.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#89

Post by pugets »

nostromo wrote: post #16
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #2

I wonder what percentage of otherwise very liberal Amazon devs read sentences like "The company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." and come away thinking "we're definitely the good guys."

Honest question: does the Democratic Party care about labor anymore? It feels like anti-Trumpism, identity issues (race, trans issues, etc.), and immigration have sucked all the oxygen out of the room. I can’t remember the last time I saw a Democrat run with supporting labor as their headline issue.

There are a lot of liberal/leftist communities online with that same gripe. Democrats pander to "pop politics" but have no plans for labor reform, healthcare reform, etc. that would go a long ways to helping the majority of the people in this country.

It's all theater.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#90

Post by rileymat2 »

pwinnski wrote: post #57
seibelj wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The #1 concern with a school should be the children, not the teachers. Public schools bend-over-backwards to help the teachers over the students. Public schools have remained essentially unchanged for 120 years - one teacher divulging knowledge to a room of kids in silent observation. Nothing will change when unions are in control - they have absolutely no incentive.

Non-union private schools can innovate at will, but so far it's not clear whether any of them have found a solution that works better than the one in place at public schools, while also satisfying the legal requirements put on public schools to accept all students, etc.

And unionized cannot? Maybe my children’s school is unique but the teaching there is radically different than my own.

A couple of years ago there was endless complaints about new ways to teach math.

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